Perhaps JESUS was Black...

topic posted Tue, March 7, 2006 - 3:35 PM by  Lana
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1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.


Jesus was a Jew according to biblical scripture. Jesus' family came from Arimathea (now Eritrea, part of Ethiopia), it makes complete sense to me that Jesus (Yeshua) would look more like Bob Marley and a lot less like the Kris Kristofferson stereotype we see in churches around the world.

Jesus was from the tribe of Judah which is one of the 12 tribes of Israel who are Black.

Matthew 2:1-2 – After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

Numbers 24:17 – "I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel."

Genesis 49:8-12 – Judah, your brothers will praise you; your hand will be on the neck of your enemies; your father's sons will bow down to you. 9 You are a lion's cub, O Judah; you return from the prey, my son. Like a lion he crouches and lies down, like a lioness-who dares to rouse him? 10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his. 11 He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes. 12 His eyes will be darker than wine, his teeth whiter than milk.

Revelation 5:5 – Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

1 Samuel 16:12 – So he sent and had him brought in. He was ruddy, with a fine appearance and handsome features. Then God said, "Rise and anoint him; he is the one." 13 So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of God came upon David in power.

1 Samuel 17:12 – Now David was the son of an Ephrathite named Jesse, who was from Bethlehem in Judah.

The Lemba, a Bantu-speaking people of southern Africa, have a Tradition that they were led out of Judea by a man named Buba.

The remarkable thing about the Lemba tradition is that it may be exactly right. A team of geneticists has found that many Lemba men carry in their male chromosome a set of DNA sequences that is distinctive of the cohanim, the Jewish priests believed to be the descendants of Aaron. The genetic signature of priests- a hereditary caste, different rabbis but with certain ritual roles- is particularly common among Lemba men who belong to the senior of their 12 groups, known as the Buba clan.

Over 2,700 years ago, the Assyrians exiled the ten tribes of the Kingdom of Israel. "In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria captured Samaria and he carried them away to Assyria and placed them in Halah, and on the Habor, the river of Gozan, and in the cities of Medes." In the years 722-721 BC (over 2700 years ago), the Ten Tribes who comprised the northern Kingdom of Israel disappeared. Conquered by the Assyrian King Shalmaneser V, they were exiled to upper Mesopotamia and Medes, today modern Syria and Iraq. The Ten Tribes of Israel have never been seen since. Or have they?

Tudor Parfitt, the protagonist of the NOVA documentary "Lost Tribes of Israel," made a journey through southern Africa to study the unusual traditions of a black African tribe called the Lemba. In an interview with NOVA, team member Dr. David Goldstein commented on the team's findings: "The first striking thing about the Y chromosomes of the Lemba is that you find this particular chromosomal type (Cohen modal haplotype) that is characteristic of the Jewish priesthood in a frequency that is similar to what you see in major Jewish populations.

The discovery of the Lemba's Jewish ancestry has come about through the intertwining of two unusual strands of inquiry. One was developed by geneticists in the United States, Israel and England who wondered what truth there might be to the Jewish tradition that priests are the descendants of Aaron, the elder brother of Moses.


B L A C K B L O O D I N I S R A E L.

* Genesis 12:16 – Not only Hagar, but many of Abraham’s servants were gifts from
Pharaoh and in this period it is fairly likely that many were Nubians. (approx. 1921 BC)
* Genesis 13: 6-8 – Abraham had a large number of herdsmen and 318 male servants who
were born into his house.
* Genesis 25 – Isaac, Abraham’s son and then Jacob inherited everything.

* Genesis41:50 – Joseph fathered two tribes, Ephraim and Manasseh, by an Egyptian wife, automatically making Israel nearly 10 percent Egyptian. Joshua was from one of these half-African tribes, Ephraim; in later years this tribe became so dominant that the norrthern tribes of Israel were sometimes simply called “Ephraim”. When the Israelites were subjected to slavery under the Egyptians, they and their former servants were now all defined as Israel together; this means that much intermarriage must have taken place.

* Exodus 12:38 – After 400 years, a “mixed multitude” left Egypt during the Exodus.


With Roman influence, Jesus became very much like Caesar, which made Christianity the legitimate religion for empire – they couldn't have coped with Jesus the illegitimate black Jew being the key to eternal life. We have taken the established pagan religions of Rome and converted them into the liturgy and ritual of church. We are wolves in sheep's clothing.

We can have Jesus representing our particular ethnic or religious group, but let's not forget what he was really saying. We have to get back to who Jesus, the disciples really were and what they were really saying". He was the black guy from the north of the country who didn't fit in. He was the outcast who came with these radical ideas. It was revolutionary what he had to say and if the Church could get to grips with it, it would be a completely different institution.

Jesus, his mother, Mary, and earthly father, Joseph, were Jewish by “faith”.

Jesus became Jewish by adoption through Joseph, who was of the bloodline of Abraham," he says, "and my journey of inquiry has led me to the understanding that Mary was of Egyptian and not Jewish ancestry."

Ezeogu who has been studying the Greek text of the gospel of Matthew, says that he (Matthew) was trying to answer one important question: "How was Jesus who was not of the bloodline of Abraham, able to fulfill the Jewish expectation of the coming of the Messiah?

"Citing the scriptures, the gospel writer noted the fulfillment of the prophecy that `... out of Egypt I have called my son.'" (Matthew 2:15).

The Jews in biblical times were non-white. They were people of colour like most of the people at that time in what is now called the Middle East. The white Jew, was a later development. Some researchers suggest that Jesus may have been of an olive complexion. But as Ezeogu explains: "If you're olive-coloured and you're African, you're considered black."

University of Toronto Professor John Kloppenborg, who lectures on early Christianity, notes that " the gospels are uninterested in describing what Jesus looks like. "It would be safe to say, however, that he did not look like the pictures you often see in churches of a long-haired, very Anglo-looking person complete with the halo and so forth.

"The historical Jesus probably looked like an Eastern Mediterranean person. And depending on how you classify Mediterranean people, one might reasonably say they are people of colour," says Kloppenborg.

Yes this line came from OT psalm 80:8 "The vine thou didst bring out of Egypt". Now Jesus came from the line of David and Solomon. Both of these Kings have no archaeology in Israel because they came from Egypt.

As Cain Hope Felder, a Professor of New Testament Language and Literature at Howard, once said, in an Ebony Mag. article [paraphrasing], “The question isn’t where are the Black people in the Bible, but where are the white people”.

The most sacred icons of the Catholic Church are the Black Madonna and Christ child, which are found in Europe's most venerated shrines and cathedrals. Each year, hundreds of thousands of European pilgrims ritually humble themselves before the image of Black Mary and her child Jesus at Black Madonna sites throughout France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Belgium, Portugal and other Catholic countries. Many Black Madonna statues have the black paint literally kissed off of their hands and feet. In Poland, the Church encourages believers to pray to the Black Madonna of Czestochowka every morning before rising. It is reported that Pope John Paul follows this ritual. Time Magazine (June 11, 1979) reported on Popelaul II's visit to Czestochowka's holiest shrine, which prominently displays "The Lady" known for centuries as the Black Madonna.

In the hard-to-find classic, Anacalypsis, historian Godfrey Higgens writes, "...in all the Romish countries of Europe, in France, Italy, Germany, etc., the God Christ, as well as his mother, are described in their old pictures and statues to be black. The infant God in the arms of his black mother, his eyes and drapery white, is himself perfectly black. If the reader doubt this, he/she may go to the cathedral at Moulins -to the famous chapel of the Virgin at Loretto ...the whiteness of the eyes and teeth, and the studied redness of the lips, are very observable... There is scarcely an old church in Italy where some remains of the worship of the BLACK VIRGIN and BLACK CHID are not to be met with. Very often the black figures have given way to white ones, and in these cases the black ones, as being held sacred, were put into retired places in the churches, but were not destroyed...

St. Augustine stated about the conference of Nicea in 325 AD that, "When I read the proceedings, it makes me laugh. These people are trying to give us a religion we had three thousand years ago." St. Augustine WAS/IS the most influential Saint in
Catholocism's history. He was an African and he is the reason for the adoption of certain beliefs and structures in Christianity (Along side Tertillun and Cyperian).

St. Augustine, a person that many "Christians" know nothing about. They would be surprised to know that St. Augustine was African (Black) and that most of the early "Fathers" of Christianity were Black. Today's Christians would be perplexed by St. Augustine's statement, that "which is now called the Christian religion, really was known to the ancients..." St. Augustine was born in North Africa (today's Algeria). He lived between 354-430 A.D. If St. Augustine is right, that a religion was known to ancient people similar to "Christianity," then what was the name of that religion?

Judaism was one of the many religions originally practiced by African people. "Christianity" was the recorded history of a Black Revolutionary named Yeshua (Jesus is derived from a Greek word, Yeshua was not Greek) who rebelled against the Roman Empire and tried to teach the Black Hebrews at that time a clearer understanding of the word of God.

The blue-eyed, blond-haired "Jesus" hanging from the wall in many present day churches was actually the family member of some European artist from the 16th century who was commissioned by the leaders of the white Roman church to paint the Son of God in the image of a white man in order to enslave and dominate the original people of the scriptures.

Throughout Europe there remain a number of places of worship which feature paintings, statues and frescoes of a dark-skinned Jesus and His mother Mary such as the cathedral of Moulins in France, the Church of Annunciata, the Church of St. Stephen at Genoa, the St. Francisco at Pisa, the Church of St. Theodore at Munich, etc


________________________________________________________________________
In 325 C.E. Christian bishops, theologians, and imperial advisers attended a council meeting in Nicaea, by the request of Emperor Constantine; to discus the formation of a unified Christian church. Prior to this council there were numerous Christian Gospels and texts in use by different sects of Christians. This council meeting and others like it tried to resolve the controversies surrounding Jesus' divinity. These councils also formalized which of the Gospels and Texts would be included into the New Testament.

Modern scholars are still trying to resolve these same controversies. These controversies continue for two main reasons:

1. The original sayings of Jesus were passed on to his followers by word of mouth.
2. The historical Jesus has been obscured in Church dogma. Thus, the earliest writings we do have of Christianity were not written until some twenty years after Jesus' death.

Scholars believe that there was a sayings Gospel that recorded Jesus' teachings (similar in format to that of the Gospel of Thomas, written between 50-70 C.E. This anthology of Jesus' wisdom teachings and parables is believed to have been used as a second source by Luke and Matthew; when they revised the Gospel of Mark to create their own Gospels around 90 C.E. The sayings Gospel has been given the title of Q, based on the first letter for the German word source. The Gospel of Q however, is a hypothetical text that scholars believe has been lost over the years. Scholars have reconstructed this Gospel based on the material found in Luke and Matthew, but not found in Mark. Based on this, the Gospel of Q is mostly a collection of wisdom teachings. Thus, the Gospel of Q is not a religious text but a wisdom text.


_______________________________________________________________________________

THE PENTATEUCH


The Pentateuch (the Law of the Prophets) was of great importance to Jesus and those who surrounded him and adopted his teachings in their hearts in that time 2000 years ago. Jesus was very resolute to keep and FULLFILL this law.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


 The Pentateuch states that all are equal, that no person may oppress or exploit another, that all have the right to be free and be independent masters of their own fate.
 Every person is entitled as a matter of right to social security. This means that people are entitled to be supported by the community not only when they fall on hard times but also to maintain their independence as independent breadwinners for their families.
 For example, the community has to provide backup funds to those who need them and they have to be provided as and when required. To prevent people being exploited through their need these funds have to be provided without charging interest and such 'loans' are cancelled every seventh year if the borrower has been unable to repay them.
 The country's wealth, and this applies particularly to productive capital, belongs to all equally and has to be shared out. This equal and fair distribution of the community's wealth has to be updated at regular intervals.
 The role of those who are rich is seen to be that of administering their wealth and money on behalf of and for the community and not that of enriching themselves at the expense of the community.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law of the prophets.

“These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you — that everything written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms must (dei) be fulfilled” (Lk 24:44).
These laws of the Pentateuch were to have to be followed and applied by Jews as a matter of law in their daily lives.
However, it was such laws of behavior and such social system laws which the rich simply did NOT want to apply and they, the rich and powerful, had the application of the laws changed to suit themselves.
Jesus’ ministry was strongly opposed by the Pharisees (the Jewish society of “scholars” and “priests”) because of his interest in the poor and his criticism of hypocrisy within the Jewish community. Jesus saw that many of the Pharisees followed only the letter of the commandments and forgot the spirit. For this he denounced them; while they in turn looked upon him as a revolutionary, accused him of breaking the Sabbath because he healed the sick on the day of rest, and regarded as blasphemy his claim to be the Son of God, in which he claimed that we were all sons and daughters of God originally.
Jesus tried to reverse this situation and to have such laws (The Pentateuch) applied by people in their everyday lives.
Paul was Jewish and he persecuted the Christians who were renewing their knowledge of the laws and the application of the laws in their daily lives. So he was acting on the side of, that is for, the oppressive establishment.
THE CREATION OF THE BIBLE

In 325 C.E. Christian bishops, theologians, and imperial advisers attended a council meeting in Nicaea, by the request of Emperor Constantine; to discus the formation of a unified "Christian" church. Prior to this council there were numerous Christian Gospels and texts in use by different sects of Christians. This council meeting and others like it tried to resolve the so called "controversies" surrounding Jesus' divinity. These councils were to ones that also formalized which of the Gospels and Texts would be included into the New Testament.

Constantine the Great set out to conquer the world. It seems he had a vision (like Paul), then a dream, then a victory, and subsequently was “converted” to Christianity, and all this was due, it is said, to the miraculous power of Christ’s “cross”. But this is blasphemy of course because anyone who holds the True word of Christ would NEVER kill, but would "love thy enemies" and “love your neighbor as yourself”.

Who was this Constantine?

Constantine had lived the life of a soldier. Killing people was his business and in this enterprise he was very successful. Publicly, he had distinguished himself on the battlefield, first as a soldier and then as a general, and in his private life he had murdered his own father-in-law, Maximian Herculius.

Now to such a man, we are supposed to believe, the Lord gave exceeding precious privileges and blessings. What, then, were the results? Did Constantine immediately reform, turn about, abandon his old course and become a true Christian and faithful follower of Jesus’ example? Did he give up his emperorship and abandon this old world which is under the overlordship of the Devil, even as all true Christians must do?—Jas. 4:4; John 15:19; Luke 4:5-8.

No! Instead of abandoning his former course of iniquity Constantine simply enlarged his field of activity, increased his appetite for conquest, and expanded his business of killing people. His pride, high-mindedness and arrogance ripened to the full. Like the avaricious dictators of modern times, he coveted world domination in the worst way and was not content until he was sole ruler of the Western world.

Constantine’s sideline was a sort of “Murder, Inc.”, a hobby with him, out of which he seemed to get a special joy. Of his known murders, his father-in-law headed the list. His second victim, the first after seeing the vision of the cross, was his sister Anastasia’s husband, Bassianus by name. Next he killed his 12-year-old nephew, Licinianus, the son of his sister Constantina. His wife, Fausta, he killed in a bath of boiling water. Next was a friend named Sopater. Then his sister Constantina’s husband, Licinius, he murdered. Number seven on the list was his own son, his firstborn, Crispus, whom he beheaded.

THE WORD OF GOD

The original sayings of Jesus were passed on to his followers by “word of mouth”, NOT thru scripture. Thus the historical Jesus has been obscured in Church dogma. The earliest writings we do have of Christianity were not written until some twenty years after Jesus' death.

Some Scholars believe that there was a sayings Gospel that recorded Jesus' teachings (similar in format to that of the Gospel of Thomas, written between 50-70 C.E.) This anthology of Jesus' wisdom teachings and parables is believed to have been used as a second source by Luke and Matthew; when they revised the Gospel of Mark to create their own Gospels around 90 C.E.
The letters of the Apostle Paul were also being written at this time, but separate from Jesus’ first hand apostles. Paul's letters were written between 50-60 C.E. It is clear from, Paul's own letters that he did not know Jesus directly.

PAUL THE APOSLTLE

Who was he? Why did he stay away from Jesus’ first hand disciples?

Christians that knew Jesus directly were attacking Paul's authority as an apostle. He knew that he had no real authority to ‘preach’ but did so anyway. That is why he felt he had to explain himself.:

(Gal 1:11-12)
I want you to Know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from, any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from, Jesus Christ.

(1 Corinthians, 15:9)

For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle,...

(Galatians 1:13)
For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.

Paul of course was often forced to defend his actions prior to his ‘conversion’. Moreover, he does not describe his vision of Jesus in any real detail, but simply maintains that he had a vision of Jesus the Christ and Heaven. When asked about his vision he down plays its importance.

(2 Corinthians, 12:6)
Even if I choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.

Why would Paul not share his vision to inspire and gain the respect of Jesus very close disciples in order to receive approval for his own ministry? After his conversion, Paul did not take the time to learn Jesus' teachings directly from, the original apostles. In fact it seems that he goes out of his way to avoid the original apostles and started preaching in other churches without approval from Jesus’ disciples.

(Galatians 1:16-17)
... I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see ‘those who were apostles before I was’, but I went immediately into Arabia...

Paul must have been afraid of the questions the original apostles would have asked him about regarding his vision. Being the “original apostles” and followers of Jesus they would have quickly realized if Paul had not seen the image of Jesus, and whether he knew Jesus' teachings or not. Paul was afraid to go to them.

Paul not only avoids the apostles, but he stays as far away from, the Jerusalem Church, as possible. Damascus is over one hundred and twenty miles away from, the Jewish Christian community. This may have been his way of establishing his credibility as a Christian apostle with the ‘Gentiles’. In this way he could gain entry into the Christian community. It also allowed Paul to “claim his apostleship” without any direct confrontation from, the original apostles. The Gentile Christians of Damascus (who loved by the power of Christ and refused no one entry into the wisdom of God) of course were more likely to accept Paul's vision story and conversion message than the Jewish Christians who “knew” the teachings of Jesus “first hand”.


(Galatians 1:18-19)
Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles - only James, the Lord's brother.

Paul then stays away from Jerusalem for “fourteen years”, maybe because his first meeting with the apostles Peter and James did not go so well. On his second visit he takes others with him (for support) to help him win over the original apostles.

(Galatians 2:1)
Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas.

Paul implies that this meeting did not go well. He clearly states that he did not submit to or even acknowledges the authority of the (original) apostles.
. . But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders; for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.

(Galatians 2:6)
As for those who seemed to be important-whatever they were makes no difference to me. . . those men added nothing to my message.

Thus, not only does Paul not acknowledge their authority, but also he does not believe they even understood the true teachings of Jesus and denounces them. His dismisses Jesus’ first hand disciples entirely and goes onto preach the ‘word’ from his own understanding. (Be aware of the wolves who come in sheep’s clothing)

Understand the words of Jesus have been filtered to us through different authors. That is why the “holy ghost” was given to all those who “truly” seek to understand the wisdom of God and the understanding of ‘Christ’. By the grace of “love” all things will be made clear to you.

. Proverbs is so beautiful… I love it. I love some of the teachings of the bible; but I am also very aware of absolute horrors that went into its creation and selective compilation by the murderous authorities of Rome.

The word of God cannot be learned by just mere pages in a book. The scriptures are dead, but the “living word” of God is alive and inexplicably comes to us by way of the “Holy Ghost” (inner spirit) for all those have “eyes to see, and ears to hear”. That is why Jesus said he would send to us the “Holy Ghost”. He did not say “I will send to you the scriptures after I am gone”, but he gave us the Holy Ghost (spirit) by which all things would be revealed to find comfort in its Truth.

At the time of Jesus there were numerous Christian sects with different ways of life, enjoying the freedom of the Law – found in the Pentateuch. Jesus taught that we should not “secularize” ourselves but receive ALL walks of life into the holy wisdom of God where “love” was the first commandment. The Roman empire at that time were judging this as hypocrisy because of the differing sects and as well Jesus was stating that God can be found within, so they called it blasphemy.

Jesus was sometimes opposed to the Jewish authorities but only challenged (not with force but with wisdom) Judaism and its strict religious precepts when it's observance neglected the suffering of others, but remained true to the Law of his forefathers and the Torah. Jesus actually demanded more compassion for ones neighbors and towards ones enemies. For “Jesus’ God” is known through his love and compassion of both the good and the evil. His God is LOVE. Jesus focused on the “kingdom of God” as coming (“heaven on Earth”), thus God's judgment is coming or had already begun. (wow, imagine if you substituted the word God with Love?....the Kingdom of Love is coming!)

Paul on the other hand, taught that ‘Jesus’ was the true means of redemption. He focuses on Christ's death and resurrection. Paul also sees faith in the resurrection and in Jesus as overriding the former requirements of the Jewish law (which Jesus honored).
(Galatians 2:16).

Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.


Whereas Jesus observed the Law of his forefathers and never sought to destroy them but “fulfill them”.

The word of God cannot be learned by just mere pages in a book. The scriptures are dead, but the “living word” of God is alive and inexplicably comes to us by way of the “Holy Ghost” (inner spirit) for all those have “eyes to see, and ears to hear”. That is why Jesus said he would send to us the “Holy Ghost”. He did not say “I will send to you the scriptures after I am gone”, but he gave us the Holy Ghost (spirit) by which all things would be revealed to find comfort in its Truth.

At the time of Jesus there were numerous Christian sects with different ways of life, enjoying the freedom of the Law – found in the Pentateuch. Jesus taught that we should not “secularize” ourselves but receive ALL walks of life into the holy wisdom of God where “love” was the first commandment. The Roman empire at that time were judging this as hypocrisy because of the differing sects and as well Jesus was stating that God can be found within, so they called it blasphemy.

Jesus was sometimes opposed to the Jewish authorities but only challenged (not with force but with wisdom) Judaism and its strict religious precepts when it's observance neglected the suffering of others, but remained true to the Law of his forefathers and the Torah. Jesus actually demanded more compassion for ones neighbors and towards ones enemies. For “Jesus’ God” is known through his love and compassion of both the good and the evil. His God is LOVE. Jesus focused on the “kingdom of God” as coming (“heaven on Earth”), thus God's judgment is coming or had already begun. (wow, imagine if you substituted the word God with Love?....the Kingdom of Love is coming!)

Paul on the other hand, taught that ‘Jesus’ was the true means of redemption. He focuses on Christ's death and resurrection. Paul also sees faith in the resurrection and in Jesus as overriding the former requirements of the Jewish law (which Jesus honored).
(Galatians 2:16).

Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.


Whereas Jesus observed the Law of his forefathers and never sought to destroy them but “fulfill them”. Now Jesus was a humble man and he had said we could perform the miracles that he did and much more even after he was gone, if we “cleansed ourselves” and obeyed God. Yet Paul chose his ministry to worship ‘Him’ (Jesus) more than God; more than the ‘Law’ (which Jesus sought to FULLFILL).

Jesus told us that, like him, we would be able to acquire the “Spiritual gifts” if we stepped away from “all that defileth a man”. He never ONCE asked to be worshiped and put on pedestal but always expounded the wisdom and Law of God (love). God was to be worshipped, not himself. Jesus did not want to be put on a pedestal.

Clearly Paul changed what Jesus had taught. Paul's ideology served the “establishment” instead of the people, and this became Christianity's official dogmatic doctrine. This was the basis for all the bloody wars “in the name of God”.

At times it could have seemed like Jesus was prideful (which gave further credence to other prideful arrogant dogmatic Christian rulers) by saying things like “Come follow me… I am the Way” …but Christ led them to the wilderness to be taught they ways of “God”. I believe it is important that we should be going into the wilderness once in awhile to cleanse ourselves too. Instead we are raping and plundering our forests and devastating our resources here on this Earth. You could say that we are committing crimes against God for we are desecrating Gods Creation.

Another difference between Jesus and Paul's teachings can be seen from, their opposing views on government authority. Jesus clearly felt that government control hinders human's connection to God. Paul however, felt that “God had established these government authorities”. Paul (who was responsible for the killings of thousands of Jesus followers) felt he had the authority to contradict Jesus' teachings without even counseling with Jesus’ true disciples as to the policies of the Law and who were alive at that time.

Paul makes no references to Jesus' ethical and moral teachings in situations where it would have been in his best interest to do so. He, in fact, contradicts some of them. For example, Paul held that gentile Christians need not obey Jewish law to be saved (Galatians 3:8-9 and 5:6). Evidently he was unaware that this was a direct contradiction of the teachings of Jesus on this matter (Matthew 5:17-19). Furthermore when Paul does make such ethical pronouncements as "Bless those who persecute you" (Romans 12:14), he does not cite the authority of Jesus who first spoke these words as documented in (Matthew 5:10-12). Apparently Paul never heard of the Sermon on the Mount. When Paul says in Romans 8:26, “We do not know how to pray as we should,” (?) Does this mean he was unaware that Jesus taught the Lord’s Prayer to his disciples (Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke 11:2-4)? Did Paul not know of Jesus’ prayer against temptation (Mark 14:35-36 and parallels) or the famous farewell prayer (John 17)?

Paul clearly ‘used’ Jesus (whom he had never met personally) to gain his importance in the ministry (without consent from the first hand disciples who ‘personally knew Jesus’) and created the “religion worshipping Christ” instead of using Jesus' teachings on worshipping the “Kingdom of God” first and FOREMOST*. Jesus did not want to be worshipped any more than he wanted his Birth-Day capitalized and celebrated. He wanted people to hear the word of GOD and follow his teachings to worship only God. Jesus understood the God in all things

Mat 19:17 - “And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into ‘life’, keep the commandments (the commandments of the Law of his forefathers found in the Pentateuch – passed down thru the Prophets).”

Paul used the Hebrew Scriptures as his main support for his moral and religious arguments. When others harass him and question his knowledge he turned to the Hebrew Scriptures and not Jesus' teachings. This would have placed the Gentiles at a disadvantage. In this way Paul's authority came from his knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures, and not his Knowledge of Jesus' teachings.

The only steadfast source for Paul’s life is his own writings. We could look to Acts but mainly Acts supplies a lot of information ‘about’ Paul, and a large amount of the information about Paul related in Acts does not agree with Paul’s own account. There are many discrepancies and contradictions in these gospels.

Some may ask, was it even possible for Paul to have know Jesus?

Yes. We know that Paul was a Pharisee and a persecutor of Christians (Galatians 1:12) until his “conversion”. He gave us two main clues for setting historical dates.

I. A reference to King Aretas. (2 Cor. 11:32-33). We know that King Aretas rule ended about 39 C.E.

II. Paul attended the Jerusalem conference of about 49 C.E.

Paul's dates are not definitely known, but he is believed to have lived from, somewhere around 5 to around 67. Although these dates may not be exact, the traditional dates of Jesus’ ministry (27-30) fall well within them. When Jesus was supposed to have been active in his ministry, Paul was a grown man in his mid twenties living and working in Jerusalem.
posted by:
Lana
Canada
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  • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

    Wed, March 8, 2006 - 2:44 PM
    Well perhaps he was Star....

    Just a couple inquiries:

    Star: Jesus was a Jew according to biblical scripture. Jesus' family came from Arimathea (now Eritrea, part of Ethiopia), it makes complete sense to me that Jesus (Yeshua) would look more like Bob Marley and a lot less like the Kris Kristofferson stereotype we see in churches around the world.

    I am assuming this derives from the belief by some that Joseph was an uncle and not a disciple?

    Also...my understanding was that the exact location of Arimathea while uncertain did not extend outside the confines of Israelite Tribal lands. Melissa.. Nolen...?

    In addition: Eritrea won indepence from Ethiopia in the 1990's. There is strong evidence though that Judaism existed prior to Christianity in Ethiopia leaving at least a potential question of jesus's birth but I couldn't find anything that aligned Eritrea with Arimathea.

    lastly...I don't think the Jews (on a whole) would have as big a hang up with what color he was then those who would use ethnicity as somes type of proof to serve their own individual needs or agendas.
    • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

      Wed, March 8, 2006 - 3:00 PM
      We are all made of star matter since there is only to natural elements originally of the planet earth. hydrogen being one.....

      There is a delicious little book that explains how we're made from star matter called "Dirt" the author escapes me...I have the book at home...
      • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

        Wed, March 8, 2006 - 4:29 PM
        Here is a BBC article on the subject.

        news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_ne...3958241.stm
        • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

          Wed, March 8, 2006 - 6:31 PM
          That was really interesting Nolen...Thanks! Now...the big question...is Middle Eastern and/or Mediterranean White or Black? Or both? Could Jesus have been both? Somehow I personally think he reflected (or wanted to reflect) an image that included all.
          • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

            Thu, March 9, 2006 - 7:04 AM

            LOL!

            What!? You people still haven’t gotten this yet?

            That the story of Jesus is allegory...

            What’s wrong with your brains? All these books, Urantia and others are crap

            of course Jesus was black

            it's like asking if Santa Claus was black or white

            Mary Magdalene was Jesus’ Whore!
            • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

              Thu, March 9, 2006 - 11:06 AM
              Chaz,
              You're an asshole.
              • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                Thu, March 9, 2006 - 11:10 AM

                i reather be an asshole than a Beeyotch!!! :P
                • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                  Thu, March 9, 2006 - 11:42 AM


                  i rather...typos

                  Jesus was as black as wesley snipes :D
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                    Thu, March 9, 2006 - 11:45 AM
                    I think folks are scared to admit they he is black...afterall he was made in the image of God...hmmm thus making God black. What a thought that some bigot would be following the writings of a black man all these years. OMG. What a nightmare for the racist types who profess to be christians and yet have a heartful of hate towards non-white. Goodness the irony. The Comedy of Errors...you got it see the humor of this...hahhahahahhahahah
                    • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                      Thu, March 9, 2006 - 4:04 PM
                      if your denomination let's you consider science at all, then you can show full evidence that all of humanity was origionally from africa. skin pigents may have darkened or lightened due to climate. Just like every other animal. Of course, if you accept that info as a christian then you have to question if mankind is more then 5000 years old. As for if jesus was one balck among many whites, no way possible. If he was black among many black people, then there would be something noticed about this in archeological paintings from those times. Why use tan colors to paint people if all of the ones you know are black. So anyway... think people. Peace.
                    • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                      Thu, March 9, 2006 - 4:23 PM
                      >>I think folks are scared to admit they he is black...afterall he was made in the image of God...hmmm thus making God black. What a thought that some bigot would be following the writings of a black man all these years. OMG. What a nightmare for the racist types who profess to be christians and yet have a heartful of hate towards non-white. Goodness the irony. The Comedy of Errors...you got it see the humor of this...hahhahahahhahahah<<

                      You're giving me some *bad* ideas for some practical jokes here... ;P
                      • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                        Thu, March 9, 2006 - 5:11 PM
                        go for it...I love jokes...in life we need to laugh. Can't take s**t serious for too long...too much energy to waste on being uptight..


                        Jesus was tired one night so he went to the inn keeper...

                        "hey can you put me up for the night..."

                        Inn keeper goes "sure"...

                        gives him 3 nails...

                        I know it's so bad..

                        • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                          Thu, March 9, 2006 - 5:24 PM
                          Lol!

                          Jesus is dying on the cross, and Peter is down the hill comforting Mary Magdalene when he hears Jesus' faint voice, "Peter. . . Peter. . ."

                          "I must go and help my Savior," he said and went up the hill, only to be beaten and kicked back down by the Roman centurions guarding the cross. But soon he hears, "Peter. . . Peter," in even fainter tones but he cannot ignore the call. Peter limps up the hill, leans a ladder against the cross, and gets halfway up when the centurions knock over the ladder, beats him brutally, and tosses him back down the hill.

                          Again he hears, "Peter. . . Peter. . ." ever fainter, and again, he cannot refuse his Lord. In pain, he slowly staggers up the hill, drags himself up the ladder, and finally gets even with Christ's face. Just as the centurions are reaching for the ladder, Jesus says, "Peter. . . Peter. . . look, I can see your house from here."

                          Humor is SO important!
                • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                  Thu, March 9, 2006 - 3:35 PM
                  oh yeah.... you're a stupid bitch too
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                    Thu, March 9, 2006 - 3:43 PM
                    hmmm Steve why the names? Did you run out of things to say? No need for name calling
                    • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                      Thu, March 9, 2006 - 4:07 PM
                      30:

                      "hmmm Steve why the names? Did you run out of things to say? No need for name calling"



                      old problem. It was directed in response to chaz. I thought it would post right beneath his post so I didn't quote him first. Keep your eye on chazz and after a while you'll understand why some of us like slap him upside the head as we pass by .
                      • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                        Thu, March 9, 2006 - 4:16 PM

                        you have to look at for the Alts, if you're not careful you might step on 'em
                        • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                          Thu, March 9, 2006 - 8:31 PM
                          what the hell is alt anyway? Asshole lettus and tomato?
                          • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                            Thu, March 9, 2006 - 9:02 PM
                            An alt is an alternate ID which some one takes. (Which, of course, is against the rules.)
                            Usually they do it to let some darker impulse free which they haven't the balls or honesty for in their primary persona.
                            Occasionally it may have a bit of humorous intent as well, but usually alts tend to be at best trolls out to sow discord and distroy conversations while harrassing people they have a grudge against. At worst they are down right vile.

                            Officially it is a banned practice that can get you kicked off. Unofficially if you aren't too overboard you'll just piss every one off.

                            Of course the person running the alt usually thinks they are terribly clever.

                            Alts generally have few or no pics, few or no friends, few or now details, a new date and an obnoxious personality.
                            But becareful with profiling because noobs also fit that discription sometimes.
                            • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                              Thu, March 9, 2006 - 10:15 PM
                              ok, so basically everyone with wit who insults Chazz is an alt in his eyes, which I bet in his world makes them a pure illusion. Woooooooooooo~~~~~~~~~~~ chaz see's dead people
                      • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                        Thu, March 9, 2006 - 5:13 PM
                        oh but he's my bitch... :P~~~

                        how about no name calling..it makes me sad...we're suppose to be disagreeing not name calling..come on :(
                        • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                          Thu, March 9, 2006 - 5:32 PM
                          As this is the Crossroads of Religions
                          I would ask that the namecalling rule extends to
                          prophets, teachers and founders of faith.

                          Calling Mary Magdeline a "whore" is not just an insult
                          to Christians (most particularly Eastern Orthodoxy
                          who regard her to be an Apostle)
                          but is, in effect, an insult to women in general.

                          The "Magdeline was a whore" myth
                          was a patriarchal ploy to undermine women in Christianity
                          (not to mention women in sex work)
                          • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                            Thu, March 9, 2006 - 6:09 PM
                            As I understand it, they just don't know if she was or wasn't a whore. What they do know is that she was a woman of substance and her story and the story of several other Mary's and unnamed women got mushed together.

                            Personally I think it would be nice if she was a whore. Jesus certainly had nothing against working women and was noted for hanging out with them, ah, strickly for "spiritual" business of course...<nudge><nudge><wink><wink> Say no more.

                            I find it appropriate that one of the premire apostles, who was one of his lovers and possibly his wife and the mother of his children, is all but forgotten thanks to xtian prudity and mysogeny.

                            I bet Peter guards the door because Jesus and Mary are shagging away.
                            • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                              Thu, March 9, 2006 - 6:33 PM
                              Another thing we know is she gave him money on several occasions. So some have suggested that if she was a prostitute then Jesus was a kind of pimp...

                              But that's pretty silly. Their ideas of this kind of thing were way different from ours. I'm not even sure they had anything like what we call "pimps."

                              It is interesting though that she is mentioned so often and so prominantly in the Gospels...... if she was JUST a whore.

                              She was obviously more than that in the minds of the writers of the Gospels. Some have suggested she was a temple prostitute, i.e. a priestess, while others believe she was his wife, yet still others think she was both. What seems indisputable is she was very important to Jesus--not just a hanger on or camp follower, but a central part of his group.
                              • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                Thu, March 9, 2006 - 10:11 PM
                                Read it yourself - Mary MagD was the child of wealth. Later on, there's 'Mary the Whore'. They're pretty clearly different - only a book so mind-crushingly hard to read could lead to the amount of weird contradictory legends that spring from it.
                                • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                  Thu, March 9, 2006 - 11:37 PM
                                  >>Read it yourself - Mary MagD was the child of wealth. Later on, there's 'Mary the Whore'. They're pretty clearly different - only a book so mind-crushingly hard to read could lead to the amount of weird contradictory legends that spring from it.<<

                                  Lol! Actually I'm not so sure she was ever called a 'whore.' She's often associated with the woman "sinner" in Luke who washed Jesus feet, but it doesn't actually say that. Then there's Mary of Bethany who was a whole different person. And Mary his mother...

                                  My take is it's more likely that Mary of Bethany was the "sinner" who washed Jesus's feet, but even more likely we're talking about three different woman entirely. I'm pretty sure Mary Magdalene was never a prostitute, I just mentioned the whole "temple prostitute" idea because it's one interpretation and a kind of interesting one at that...
                          • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                            Thu, March 9, 2006 - 7:06 PM

                            Sensei's just clueless ...
                            • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                              Thu, March 9, 2006 - 7:12 PM


                              Mary Magdalen Excerpts from:

                              MARY MAGDALENE and Her Seven Devils
                              -Alvin Boyd Kuhn

                              www.theosophical.ca/magdalene.htm

                              the allegorism connected with Mary Magdalene, "Veronica," and also with Lilith Adam's "first snatch") and other women figures had to undergo "the days of purification," SIX (SEX) as the result of her giving birth to the seventh principle.

                              matching the seven principles of Hathors in Egypt

                              She was Mother Nature out of whose body the seven original demoniac forces had to be displaced.

                              And the character of harlotry ascribed to her is due to another phase of the typal depiction, which assayed to present vividly to ancient minds the prolific productivity of Mother Nature out of wedlock, which is to say, before she had been impregnated with the higher Luciferian germ of divine Intelligence.

                              Her brood of natural instincts were born--but not begotten of the Father, Mind. She was yet a Virgin, not married to Spirit.

                              The Great Whore and the Scarlet of Revelation.

                              She was Hathor of the seven cows, or the cow with seven heads
                              But it was necessary

                              Six would stand for the feminine or the Mother, Nature, water, animal man; seven for the god in man.

                              The animal man, summit of Mother matter's creative edifice, was to be completed and redeemed (from mere animality) by the coming of the seventh principle. He was given dominion over all beneath him, the beasts of the field, the fish of the sea and the fowls of the air.

                              He was to put all things under his feet "by that power whereby
                              he is able to subdue all things unto himself." He was to conquer the serpent, the scorpion and the tiger in his own animal subconscious, not out in the jungle, be it noted--else the whole matter is worth only a buffoon's jest.

                              This seventh element that was to crown the order of natural evolution with spiritual potency was the salt of the earth, the little leaven in the lump, the grain of mustard seed, the treasure in the napkin or invested to gain increment, the gold in the fish's mouth (saviors born in the sign of Pisces). This was the child begotten of the Father.
                              • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                Thu, March 9, 2006 - 7:14 PM

                                Mary Magdalene (was sensual freak!) :D

                                yet before she knew it
                                she was getting old without a child (higher spirit mind)...and we know what happens then, she starts freaking out...
                                but is there some type of meaning to this maddness?

                                The grand meaning here has been lost because tender Pagan Christian sensibilities shrank from facing a bit of sexual or creative symbolism. The incident of course refers to the menstrual stoppage which is the index of impregnation and announces the prospective birth of a child.

                                Here again the woman is Mother Nature, who for twelve ages (years) has run to waste with her very life-blood and had not yet produced the Christ child!

                                The touch or impregnation of the Christ mind stopped her wasteful and unproductive flow (whoring around) and turned her from the Virgin to the sanctified mother of spirit.

                                Then there is that set of stories about "barren women" bringing forth in their old age the Child who becomes the man of God, the king or ruler. And these myths have perplexed the priests and the people without end. Happily light is at hand.

                                The old age feature of this divine motherhood was baffling until a hint was picked up from two lines of one of the verses of the stirring Christmas hymn: Hark, The Herald Angels Sing. They ran:

                                Late in time behold him come,
                                Offspring of the Virgin's womb.

                                There was the clue: "Late in time!" Not till near the end of six long aeons of slow evolution in the womb of Mother Nature does the Christ consciousness come to birth! Nature had first to bring matter up through the mineral, vegetable and animal stages before the body of man was of requisite complexity and capacity to accommodate the Christ vibration.
                                • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                  Thu, March 9, 2006 - 7:30 PM

                                  12 tribes

                                  Judah Leo

                                  Issachar Cancer

                                  Zebulun Gemini

                                  Reuben Taurus

                                  Simeon Aries

                                  Gad Pisces

                                  Ephraim Aquarius

                                  Manasseh Capricorn

                                  Benjamin Sagittarius

                                  Dan Scorpio

                                  Asher Libra

                                  Naphtali Virgo
                                • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                  Thu, March 9, 2006 - 8:21 PM
                                  I assume you've heard the Grail legends. (popularized, if somewhat less than accurately, by The Da Vinci Code? (of course you have, what a silly question.)

                                  The interesting thing is that despite a few inacuracies and the use of 'creative license', much of the history in that book was accurate. Now if we use the standards demanded by historians that's not enough to state the legends are true... but if we use the same standards used by fundy Xtians to argue that the Gospels are 100% accurate and every word is... em, gospel... then those legends must be true.

                                  As Nolan has mentioned a couple times, the STRONG norm in those days (for Jews especially) was to be married. It's that whole "go forth, be fruitful, and multiply" thing. The Jews saw that as Gods first and primary command. For a 30 year old to be unmarried would have been highly unusual and worthy of comment. The Gospels never say he wasn't married, they never say he was either, they just don't mention it. Given that they don't mention it, some have argued that he must have been married.

                                  To understand that further we have to think back to the way they thought about women in those days--women were not important. Wives were pretty much property (I'm talking Israel here, Rome had somewhat different rules...) and subject to their husbands in all things. They were not decision makers, they were properly seen as appendages of their husbands. This was true even to the extent that husbands had a right to divorce (cast off) their wives under certain conditions but wives never had any such right. And moreover it's unlikely any woman would have sought a divorce even under the harshest husband because she either needed a man to take care of her or she was a prostitute--there were few other choices.

                                  So considering Jesus marital status was never mentioned it seems more likely to me to mean that he was. That was the norm and simply to be expected, therfore not worth mentioning. It "goes without saying" is the way we would put it today. But for a 30 year old Jewish man to be unmarried would have required some explanation...

                                  It's also possible the earlier versions of the gospel(s) (refering to the synoptic gospels here) did refer to her as his wife, but that the Bishops, for whatever reasons, edited that part out--maybe if he was married it made him seem like TOO much of a real man, and maybe it was Pauls influence convincing them that marriage was only for those who were to weak to resist the sins of the flesh.

                                  IF the Q gospel did refer to her as Jesus wife then it still wouldn't have been often or with much emphasis for the reasons mentioned above, so the easiest thing to do would have been to simply remove or change a word here and there--that way there'd be no need to remove or rewrite entire passages. IF that was the case then we'd have pretty much what we have today--a set of gospels where Mary Magdalene was the most commonly mentioned female charactor, yet never stating she was his wife.

                                  Of course that's all just speculation... maybe his wife was a different person altogether and just isn't mentioned at all, or maybe he never married and they simply didn't mention it for the same reasons we might not mention if someone was gay today... you know... politics. It could be they didn't mention it because it was so strange by the norms of the time and culture that they just steered clear of the subject altogether, like an embaressing secret that everyone knows but no-one talks about. Like if you have a straight friend you might tell other people all about him and that would include his girlfriends, if you have a gay friend you might still tell everyone all about him... but you might sort of forget to mention that aspect, depending on the audience. You never said he was straight but...

                                  So maybe they just 'forgot' to mention that he never married... they never said he did marry but...

                                  On the other hand maybe Mary Magdalene was his wife who was pregnant with his child at the time of his crucifixion, moved to what is now France, bore the child, and thus the Grail legends were born. Lots of people believed that way back then, and they were closer to these events in both time and culture. MAYBE that's the reason the Bishops edited out any mentions of her being his wife--MAYBE they were afraid of any of his descendants suddenly stepping forward and taking THEIR church away from them.

                                  Just some random thoughts...
                            • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                              Thu, March 9, 2006 - 8:41 PM
                              C: ""Sensei's just clueless ...""

                              30, try and keep your bitch in line. Let him know who wears the pants on tribe.

                              honestly, I'm just giving and insult for an insult with this guy. I don't see what the problem really is with name calling if it's mostly in jest. When you don't like it you ignore it for what it is. Too tough? I'll try to be nicer, but after a while it just gets too tempting. He implied that ensei is a bitch so I called him a bitch, just a perfect set up for a joke, chazz knows I still respect him as a human being, just not much of an intelligent one. Biggest problem is that he thinks he knows everything, just ask him, he'll say one thing to deny it then say everything to enforce it entirely. It gets annoying. he puts up an ego front so I knock it down. You have a better idea of how to convince someone who lacks consistancy?
                              • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                Thu, March 9, 2006 - 9:14 PM
                                Steve who's 30?

                                Why do we need to know who wears pants? Personally I like robes...like the one jesus wore in the last supper. He looks comfy I think...

                                I don't know Steve...but here in NYC being a bitch is a good thing.. anyway have fun boys...remember play fair...and if you can't fight fair make sure you bite hard!!!




                                • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                  Thu, March 9, 2006 - 10:21 PM
                                  3#^@$$#^#: ""Steve who's 30?

                                  Why do we need to know who wears pants? Personally I like robes...like the one jesus wore in the last supper. He looks comfy I think...

                                  I don't know Steve...but here in NYC being a bitch is a good thing.. anyway have fun boys...remember play fair...and if you can't fight fair make sure you bite hard!!! ""

                                  you and your funky hacker code, what the heck should i call you?

                                  Soooo... you wear the robe and Chaz wears the veil? ROFL! ya know, some day's it's just better to be in the desert with nothing to do then to listen to somone bitch.
                                  • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                    Fri, March 10, 2006 - 7:51 AM
                                    Steve...you're getting corny now...you know it don't you.

                                    Chaz is too big for a veil..I save my veils for small men like you..want a veil..I got a red one for you
                                    • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                      Sun, March 12, 2006 - 6:09 PM
                                      3:""Steve...you're getting corny now...you know it don't you.

                                      Chaz is too big for a veil..I save my veils for small men like you..want a veil..I got a red one for you""

                                      Ooooo do I get shoes that match too?

                                      Yeah, I tend to stop trying to make sense for people who critque me without paying attention long enough to know something about me....
                          • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                            Fri, March 10, 2006 - 4:53 AM
                            Sensei: I agree, lets stop calling people "whores"....it is an insult.

                            Mary Magdelene was an incredible beautiful High priestess skilled in the arts of Tantra and school in the ancient Mystery schools of ancient Egypt... there is more to the Union of Jesus and Mary than we know... because again the Truth was left out and discredited by a bunch of white skinned Monks who had some deep issues regarding sexuality.

                            There is a great and beautiful power that is found between the Union of Man & Woman when embraced in love and truht that can be activated in their center to magnetize the two to become one.... and transcend into Higher States of being...

                            Its all about love... and exposing the truth helps us get over and out of being blinded by falsness thus lifting us into the Higher grace of God (Love) in a pure ecstatic form.... hwich opens our sacred centers to recieving and sharpening our spiritual gifts of telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation (walking on water) etc....

                            We do not have to be made low.... we were meant to embrace all the gifts that Jesus came here to teach us and even more so.... to be "raised up" into God (love)


                            power to the peaceful
                            peace to the powerful

                            xo
                            • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                              Fri, March 10, 2006 - 6:24 AM
                              The real insult is to think that being called whore is an insult.

                              Being a whore does not lessen her beauty or her priestessness.

                              Neither does not being a whore.
                              • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                Fri, March 10, 2006 - 7:23 AM
                                I can't believe you are taking this line of dialogue Swarm , of course being called a whore is insulting. Its a derogatory word anyway you look at and a convenient one as well because women in power were frowned upon.

                                Star..I could go into this elaborate summary of early depiticions of Jesus in catacombs and Constantine who was a Serb and most likely not fair skinned (himself) as well as anthropological considerations of darker skin being a more common occurence through various ethnic societies in earlier times as well as the simple point that most mediterraneans and middle easterners are classified as white in the U.S. due to assimilation principles. No pictures exist and early depictions were based on catacomb drawings. At some point in time a 'white' face emerged and it may have been due to what you claim, I don't deny as it sounds feasible considering European history. But the truth is, no one knows for sure. We need, however, to seperate history from modern day practice and address the real issue which is the assumption that the light skin depiction of jesus is the driving force in modern day inequities and discrimination. This would imply that Christians and jews are discriminatory and would be utterly shocked if it were found to be true that jesus were a black man akin on a scale to Darwinian theory. Perhaps I am readding to much into the dialogue but I don't think so. My personal opinion was that Jesus was most likely olive skinned. Now...does that make him black or white and why? I don't think we need to adress the color of Jesus's skin on a global level but rather as individuals.
                                Don't worry though...your concepts are not lost on me, I assure you I am aware of inequaties but when we alalyze such concepts do we, as inidividuals end up falling into the same traps?
                                • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                  Fri, March 10, 2006 - 9:14 AM
                                  “Assimilation principles” what the heck is that?

                                  We do know for sure KA ristos was written back in the days where we were all Black

                                  You white people should be a shamed of yourselves trying to turn everything white
                                  Racist mutherfuders and now that we have proof you got others still trying to make him white.

                                  This all comes from fear... Fear carried over from the ICE AGE...

                                  [My personal opinion was that Jesus was most likely olive skinned]

                                  LOL! that’s because you’re white w/olive skin

                                  You’ve been in the same Trap... you hate black people and want your Jesus white
                                  In denial because if Jesus iis Black you would not ,could not warship a BLACK JESUS

                                  Black man is god!

                                  and you all can't handle the truth :P
                                • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                  Fri, March 10, 2006 - 10:08 AM
                                  A: of course being called a whore is insulting.

                                  Sez who? Why do you think so? What is wrong with being a whore?

                                  I'm tired of prudes making vile everthing to do with fun or sex.

                                  There is nothing wrong with being a whore and pretending there is, is the whole of the problem.

                                  Given a choice between a whore and a prude I'll take the whore every time, and so did Jesus.
                            • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                              Fri, March 10, 2006 - 9:04 AM

                              Are you trying to tell me there’s no whores out there?

                              Now you’re going to try to pervert the ancient arts of KMT with this Tantra crap

                              You people don’t have a clue do you? just picking up pices of scattered myths and translating them to fit you perverted selves

                              JESUS IS A MYTH MARY IS A MYTH

                              THEY ARE NOT REAL PEOPLE

                              allegory
                              • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                Fri, March 10, 2006 - 11:11 AM
                                Jesus is no myth and neither is Mary....silly.... anymore than Isis and Ra.... thank God/Goddess that these beings were here on Earth for the time that they were.

                                I guess it is in the play of words... "whore" can touch ones nerve every much as "cunt" can.

                                Sexuallity is beautiful...is powerful... and has been taken out of context because of the Holy Religious Monk Zeolots ...who hated women and had a problem with their own sensuality.
                                The prostitutes of the Goddess Culture practiced 30,000 years ago was a High Honor... and these beautiful Goddesses knew the full art of Tantric Sexuality... which is beautiful and not to be obscurred by angry men who wished to control our of absolute fear and jeolousy. Which is what it boiled down to.... most men (who were not of God-Love) were rabid and jeolous and did not understand the freedom of unconditional love. Men sought to "own and beat" their women.... thus lowering them by calling them whores etc.... it is in this context that it is an insult.

                                I hope your not a woman beater Chaz.... you seem to have alot of anger issues... perhaps you need to go and cleanse by a river and find the Goddess within.

                                :-)

                                peace*
                                • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                  Fri, March 10, 2006 - 12:35 PM

                                  Star, you’re joking right? …btw tell all your friends this gets tiresome

                                  en.wikipedia. is one the most corrupted sites on the net that there is, I’ve told you this before they manipulate facts and are extremely racist

                                  The name "Osiris" is the Greek translation of the Egyptian name "Asar" (or Usar)

                                  Ausar (Osiris) Auset (Isis) son named Heru (Horus)

                                  The Greeks Translated the Great Africa myth

                                  www.homestead.com/wysinger/...egypt.html


                                  www.raceandhistory.com/histor...001.htm

                                  The story of the resurrected God-King can be found among the Khoi and San peoples of southern Africa as early as 2,000BC. It is only in Africa that the story is this old. Often called, "the mouthpiece of Africa," Egypt's location gave it contact with the Near East. Not surprisingly, years later the story of the God-King Osiris and his divine son appear in many other cultures. This includes Krishna of India (1200BC), Tammuz of Syria (1160BC), Iao of Nepal (622BC), Quetzalcoatl of Mexico (587BC), Mithra of Persia (600BC) and others. Jesus the Christ of Hebraic folklore would be the most recent addition to this pantheon.

                                  www.geocities.com/CollegePa...pirit.html

                                  papagei.us/styx/egypt.htm

                                  www.theafrican.com/Magazine/Cosmo.htm
                                  • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                    Fri, March 10, 2006 - 12:37 PM

                                    if these are from black authors of cosmology in Ancient Africa then Horus was BLACK

                                    The entire story of "jesus" (and all other religions) is a deliberate perversion of the story of Ausar, Auset and Heru (Osiris, Isis, and Horus)

                                    if it helps...

                                    I'm assuming you all know the story of Ausar, Auset and Heru. But briefly, the God Ausar and the Goddess Auset were King and Queen in Kamit. Their brother, the God Set was jealous of Ausar and murdered Him. He took Ausar's body and threw it in the river. Auset was then removed from power and Set took over the rule of the country, reigning as a tyrant. Auset searched tirelessly for the body of Her Husband. When She found Him She performed ritual (not what you think). Through ritual, the Spirit of the God Ausar came to Auset, and through Their Divine spiritual union Auset became pregnant with Heru (Khensu).

                                    Of course, this is the origin of the story of Auset Merit (Mary)
                                    being impregnated by the Holy Spirit of God the Father (Ausar) and conceiving the Son of God (Khensu/Hesus/Jesus). Auset was told by Tehuti (the God of Wisdom) that Heru would grow strong and defeat the rule of Set. Tehuti then directed Auset to hide in the swamps of North Kamit to raise the child in secret. Set (the red-evil one) was corrupted by the whites into Set-an/Satan/Shaitan, the red devil. He sought to kill Khensu Heru, because he knew that of the prophecy that Heru would grow to defeat Him and restore the kingdom of His Father Ausar.

                                    I.e., this is the origin of mary going to northern egypt with "jesus" to avoid the wrath of the evil king who sought to kill all newborn boys. It is also the origin of the 'angel' gabriel coming to mary and telling her that she would give birth to the sun/son of god.

                                    Death and resurrection of Khensu Heru. (See the Metternich Stele) Auset comes to find Heru has been stabbed by one of Set's associates. She embraces the body of Her Son and laments. Her Sister, the Goddess Nebt Het laments with Her. Another Goddess, Serqet, tells Auset to call on Ra in Heaven. Auset calls on Ra. Ra sends Tehuti down from Heaven to facilitate the resurrection of Heru. Heru goes on to defeat Set and take over the rule of the world. Heru, Auset, and Nebt Het then resurrect Ausar.

                                    I.e., Khensu (Hesus) has been murdered. The two Marys (Auset Merit and Nebt Het Merit) are there to embrace the body of the dead Son of God. The "angel of the Lord" (NOT gabriel/TEHUTI) comes to tell the two Marys (as the song goes "mary(s) don't you weep". Khensu (Hesus) is resurrected.
                                    • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                      Fri, March 10, 2006 - 12:39 PM

                                      all your religions are toast...

                                      A comparative list of some pre-existing and pre-Christian data which were christianized in the Canonical Gospels and the Book of Revelation.

                                      KMT - THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD

                                      www.theosophical.ca/AncientE...endix.htm
                                      • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                        Fri, March 10, 2006 - 3:04 PM
                                        peace man*

                                        love is the only way... open and learn.... in your temple... in your own meditations and visions...

                                        the scriptures are dead... the work of GOd you will find in your heart in every cell of your being. The LIGHT is in every atom of your DNA, every star and every particle of creation.... this is the knowledge that all these great beings that we are atlking about have come to share...

                                        no joke.... but many smiles....and great laughter in joy when wisdom is revealed....


                                        What is religion?


                                        • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                          Fri, March 10, 2006 - 7:51 PM
                                          >>What is religion?

                                          Religion is a painting of the most beautiful sunset you ever saw.

                                          What is the problem with religion?

                                          People confuse the painting for the sunset itself.
                                          • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                            Fri, March 10, 2006 - 8:09 PM
                                            M: "What is the problem with religion?"
                                            "People confuse the painting for the sunset itself."

                                            the problem is that lifes not a painting, and when the night falls and on the dark side of the soul you're
                                            going to need your light of inner understanding defragmented
                                            • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                              Fri, March 10, 2006 - 8:46 PM
                                              Defragmented?
                                              • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                                Fri, March 10, 2006 - 9:09 PM

                                                yes, into one universal myth...the Heru's journey. the astrology chart
                                                • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                                  Fri, March 10, 2006 - 9:20 PM
                                                  Then, if I'm understanding you, (and who the hell can tell with you...?) I'd say you have it backwards. The light of inner understanding is already defragmented. It only fragments when we break it up into myths. The myths themselves ARE the fragments.
                                                  • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                                    Fri, March 10, 2006 - 9:43 PM

                                                    not myths the myth ...the whole pizza pie


                                                    The twelve disciples are the twelve zodiac signs ...

                                                    (computing) reduce fragmentation of a file (your life) on a storage device by moving separated parts (religions) into a contiguous
                                                    location (in your heart) Leo the sun king

                                                    Definition:

                                                    To reorganize the disk by putting files into contiguous order. Because the operating system stores new data in whatever free space is available, data files become spread out across the disk as they are updated. Large files may be broken into thousands of fragments, causing the read/write head (brain) to move back and forth numerous extra times to read the data. A "defragger" or "optimizer program" rewrites all the files and stores them in adjacent sectors.

                                                    this is the answer, a universal re-linking (religion) of true love and brotherhood
                                                    • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                                      Sat, March 11, 2006 - 1:13 AM
                                                      >>not myths the myth ...the whole pizza pie

                                                      That's what they all say. Or actually that's not true, the better myths don't try to pretend to be the OneTrue Myth. That's just another fragment. The whole pizza pie is a fragment. The pizza is a myth. There is no such thing as a pizza. There never was a pizza, but the only way to really know that is to eat it.

                                                      >>The twelve disciples are the twelve zodiac signs ...

                                                      I thought the twelve disciples were the seven dwarves, and the 76 trombones were the twelve zodiac signs. How could I have been so wrong?

                                                      >>To reorganize the disk by putting files into contiguous order. Because the operating system stores new data in whatever free space is available, data files become spread out across the disk as they are updated. Large files may be broken into thousands of fragments, causing the read/write head (brain) to move back and forth numerous extra times to read the data. A "defragger" or "optimizer program" rewrites all the files and stores them in adjacent sectors.


                                                      this is the answer, a universal re-linking (religion) of true love and brotherhood <<

                                                      So now we know what your myth is. You say it's the "answer." What's the question? Is the question, How do I optimize my hard drive? In that case I agree, defragmenting is the answer. But what's this about "re-linking of true love and brotherhood?" You're not suggesting my brother should have sex with my wife, are you? I don't see that as much of an answer to anything. That's just plain silly.
                                            • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                              Sat, March 11, 2006 - 5:22 AM
                                              Chaz, you missed the point.

                                              M: "What is the problem with religion?"
                                              "People confuse the painting for the sunset itself."

                                              the problem is that lifes not a painting, and when the night falls and on the dark side of the soul you're
                                              going to need your light of inner understanding defragmented

                                              That is true that "life itself" is not a painting (thats what he's getting at).... but peoples version (religious or political) of how the Sun came to be is or should operate is their 'own painting' (version) of what created it all.

                                              We all need to be defragmented every once in awhile.... including you.

                                              :-)

                                              Walk with peace and understanding in the dark side of your soul.....
                                              • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                                Sat, March 11, 2006 - 6:08 AM

                                                yeah star, keep on smiling "don't worry be happy" while thousands of Buddha’s get mutilated, 40 million Africans in a holocaust of genocide. World War III is just around the corner ...yeah let them have their version their jihad version where they want to wipe white people off the face of the earth... let them keep subjugating Gays in sin and control of Women... let them continue to contaminate our schools with all those white jesus lies and how black people are apes, let them control our Govt. and ruin science.

                                                people's versions are plagiarized lies, they have distorted the truth lost the Gnosis and sold it for strip malls and designer jeans
                                                money is god sex lures you in Pagan's Christians Catholicism "in things we trust" strung him up on a cross (how sic is thst)...and you bought it, you all bought it

                                                they distorted the true myth with a pagan sacrifice of nailing Christ to a cross
                                                so the illuminati can take over and have...

                                                because all these savages knew were killing, eating animals, dead flesh, eating death living off death these wicked wicked devils changed their black robs for white disguises of church "kill and inslave in the name of Jesus"

                                                and in the name of the father son and holy ghost i give you blood and guts
                                          • Sunsets...

                                            Sat, March 11, 2006 - 5:15 AM
                                            ...yes, are so beautiful.

                                            Mystplx: i like that! : Religion is a painting of the most beautiful sunset you ever saw.

                                            What is the problem with religion?

                                            People confuse the painting for the sunset itself.

                                            xo
                                            om.....love.....
                                  • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                    Fri, March 10, 2006 - 2:58 PM
                                    I don't do en.wikipedia.... and what friends are you talking about?

                                    ????

                                    This is just me here....
                                    • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                      Fri, March 10, 2006 - 9:30 PM
                                      [I don't do en.wikipedia.... ]

                                      that post was from another thread just ignore it

                                      [and what friends are you talking about]

                                      Spread the word Star, you know what's going on, tell the world about the pagan christ and Islam nd all the the false Abrahamic religions

                                      to many have suffered...

                                      tell them the jews are not really the jews of Ethiopia and how the claim the ka bbalah and a promised land

                                      tell the world that Christ is the same personifided myth as Krishna which comes from the African negroid Dravidians, that's where the word originates, tell the world that these christ showed up as the original buddhas who are actually from Africa (Dog Stars)
                                      Suns of God. way before Siddhartha Gautama..tell them

                                      tell them that the Tao is really Ancient KMT Maat

                                      tell them that religion and politics have done nothing but divided truths spread lies
                                      • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                                        Sat, March 11, 2006 - 8:17 AM
                                        om.... I can hear you Chaz.... I see your understanding and your understaning... I bless your seeking and I know it to be opening....

                                        The true seekers of knowledge and those beings beings who were not just mere myths but real incarnations to help giude mankind (Osiris, Isis, Ra, Jesus, Krishna, Buddah, Enoch, Methusela, and many unamed from many ancient tribes on Earth) who have walked this earth for the short time that they did (and very few who do now), develope their Higher Understanding of Universal systems and the Keys to the mysteries of Life - Light - Love - Order - Spiritual Arts: God.... all understand and have understood the power of the Universal Wisdom found in "Christ" consciousness. Christus is not a man, but merely a 'word' for the energy of the Higher Mind that can be attained thru our understanding within the deeper initiations found in the sacred labrynth of our own Temple: Earthly body. Sometimes aided the sacred outer Temples: Pyramids and Medicin Wheels. Jesus was endowed with "Christ Consciouness". Jesus was a man. He was real. He was 'open' to recieving the divine Laws of Light... and descended at a Time when mankind on Earth needed to be reminded of the true Law of One.... just as the benvolent "gods" before him (Osiris, Isis etc). But know this that these powerful, beautiful gentle beings of "Light" never sought to be hailed as GODS themslves but spoke to us OF God and showed us by pure example how we could master our mind, body and soul to raise up and be connected in joy to the many mansions of Creation thru our physical being that houses our Soul. Our lack of understanding raised them on a pedastle and severly distorted the Truths of which they were speaking.

                                        Earth is not the only planet with life, you know this. There are planets more advanced than us as well as planetary bodies less advanced. Many different colors and races. Many 'colors' are found in the rainbow of the Sun. Many, MANY Suns. The Universe is teaming with life. We are here, you & I on Earth at the level of 'being' that we are....searching and growing more into our understanding as we open - our Soul. To be arguing "who was the first to know" is really very futile and kindergarden like... because some Masters who have walked this planet were not from here, but rather descended to Earth to teach us in all of our primitive understanding. There are beings who have come from other Star Systems to help guide mankind and educate us here on Earth into the deeper understanding of God (Supreem Mind) - the Light force of life.... showing themselves to certain Tribes (the wise ones) and beings who were open conduits and channels for this knowledge.

                                        The people (beings) who "see" have a deeper understanding of love.... that God is Love. There is no one relgion, way or peoples that can claim ownership of this divinie force. It is Universal. There is no need for war.

                                        The Aryans and the Dravidians do not need to be at war, but for most of us, we still have alot of "growing up" to do as far as Understanding to fully embrace this. Yes the Dravidians are an ancient race here with their roots in Nubia.... and have been subject to great persecution. The word Aryan is really a Russian, Asian, European misinterpretation of the original Sanskrit word, Arya. Arya means pure or good in Sanskrit. In the holy Vedas the good people were called Arya. Many fairskinned people distorted the "Truth" and sought to seek power and ownership by claiming that they were good based on the fact that they were "light" skinned. They did not understand the wisdom and mystery of the orginal teaching of what "Light" meant.

                                        In the purely colonialistic mind set of "conquer and destroy" (out of sheer ignorance based on fear and in'fear'iority) the white skinned Tribes (not all mind you) felt inferior to many of the beautiful people, the dark skinned Tribes that existed as One with the Earth before them who were given the knowledge and keys of Life. Many dark skinned tribes were taught how to care for life live as free esoteric beings guided to do so from the instruction and visitations by Higher beings from other star systems who taught the way of the Brother and Sisterhood of God - in Love. They themselves being our brothers and sisters of the One, in this mansion of our Solar System. (you can see this when you read the pictographs of the stories etched into stone in the great temples documenting the 'winged ones' or 'star people').... you can also read about these beings in many ancient texts from most every race. Too you must know that there are many Dravidians who were not very wise either in the past distorting their own truth, for some darker skinned beings also practiced certain savage teachings like cannabalism and war among themselves and treated women as lower entities rather than Goddesses (just like the fairskinned people).

                                        The ancient Dravidians were a Goddess culture and honored women. They were a peaceful culture. It is known by some that Dravidians are remnants of the ancient Black population who occupied most of ancient Asia and Europe. I question the idiom "Dravidian" because this term is a 19th century term that came from Western scholors. Dravidian is taken from the Sanskrit "drāvida", meaning "Southern". There are many terms and words for many things here on Earth. We can spend our whole physical incarnation here dipsputing form one to the next based on words, terms, colors and races claiming sole ownership to the rights of this planet, but the truth is you cannot really own any part of this earth any more than you can own the air that you breathe. For all belongs to God and will return to God.

                                        There are many mansions in the house of God - and God's house IS all the Universe within Universes. There are many ancient tribes of all colors in this endless Universe. The mind of 'God' (which is pure love in essence and wave, creating wave after wave of life...) does not distinguish between race or religion but is Omni present in all things, in all life. When one reaches the heart of God, one understands the heart of love that is in all. It is not about who is first or last.... but about who is love.

                                        Eziekiel saw wheels within wheels. I now understand this. Whether you want to believe me or not it is irrelevant but when I was a kid I had guides. They left when I was around 5 telling me they would return and that I should always have love in my heart and stay young. When I was 13 I had a very powerful dream of this Huge ferris like wheel coming at me thru my bedroom window and I ran downstairs outside, looked up to the sky and these triangular like prisms were turning and whirling itself into me... it was so very real.... I woke up sweating! (there was more to this dream of course :-| ...) At the time it was just a "very cool dream" that I had to tell my friends about and never forgot. But now I am remembering things more and more and I see things in my dreamtime and meditative staring.... and I know this, that the "myths" that some feel are untrue are really very real.... and that which the 'world' purports to be true, is not.

                                        Unfortunaetly Dogmatic religion has tainted and obscured the life if Jesus so much so that world wars are/have been fought over this simple powerful, magical being. But of course.... where there is great 'light' you will find great darkness. That is the paradox of life. It is humbly exepting both and embracing it all with "love" that is the key to our freedom.

                                        All the answers we need to know, can be found with the God force within our own selves.

                                        Chaz... I thank you for your seeking, speaking and sharing....and I trust that you will calm your soul and embrace love to understand. Of course I will tell all my friends what I know, and humble myself to become even more open to learning greater than that which I do and do not know (or actually "remember").... I seek knowledge, wisdom and I will expose what I see fit to reveal in order that we can raise our souls into Truth and set us free.... for the love of all life everywhere.

                                        In'Lakech

                                        in love
                                        xo
                                        • Yeshua: The real story of Jesus

                                          Sat, March 11, 2006 - 9:10 AM


                                          Star, show me your face... i thought you were a man

                                          "the letter 'j' entered the english alphabet in the 1600s. The latin and so-called hebrew way of pronouncing the name is what's relevant here, to wit "hesus/yeshua". Of course, those who speak spanish say "hesus".

                                          The greeks and later romans took one of the forms of the God Heru from ancient Kamit and corrupted His name into 'hesus'. The form of the hawk-headed Deity Heru that they corrupted was that of "Khensu"."

                                          Yeshua: The real story of Jesus

                                          ebionite.com/

                                          Real Christianity

                                          Yeshua (Jesus) was an Essene... Jesus was born in a cave in Ethiopia

                                          The Ebionites were the Essenes who became the Disciples and Followers of Yeshua

                                          Ebionite means the "poor ones"

                                          ."Blessed in spirit are the poor, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".

                                          Quoted from the Gospel of the Nazirenes

                                          If you call yourself a Christian, Jew, Messianic believer, or Nazarene,

                                          *then it is imperative that you learn of the Ebionites*

                                          -- the Poor Ones --

                                          who were the Original Essene followers of Yeshua/Jesus who were in the world and not of it.

                                          While the Disciples of TheWay have become well known in their role as Essenes who we now know to be the true bedrock and foundation of what is known today as Christianity, the Essene followers of Yeshua came to be called Ebionites


                                          The Teachings of TheWay

                                          The teachings of Yeshua/Jesus which are known as TheWay was a purely spiritual religion -- practiced by a purely spiritual people known and Essenes, Nazirenes and Ebionites. These sacred teachings became impure when placed in the hands of the Gentiles, and totally corrupted under Constantine and Pagan Rome.

                                          Essene/Ebionites Do Not Argue Over Doctrine: In the teachings of Yeshua/Jesus there can be no sects or manmade church doctrines. The Teachings of TheWay is a guide to the believer along the "Narrow Path" through the "Strait Gate" and into the Inner Kingdom.

                                          Paul taught that Denominations, Churches and Sects are under the dominion of Satan, because they alienate believers from Messiah/Christ and God. “Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.

                                          You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned ”(Titus 3:10-11 NIV). The Greek meaning of the word divisive is “one who promotes a sect ”. It was for this reason the religion of the Messiah/Christ can have no doctrines of belief, and can have no worldly name as the churches have today, and this is seen in the fact that it was called “TheWay ”.

                                          Spiritual Rebirth vs Church Doctrine: Yeshua said you must be Born Again to enter the Kingdom.

                                          Nowhere in the Bible does it remotely suggest that present-day born again Christians have fulfilled this requirement by saying a prayer or merely calling on the Lord with the lips.

                                          We are an Embryonic Image of our pre-existent soul, and we must experience the next stage of birth by merging the paradoxical male/female forces of Creation within our own mind and being.

                                          The pathway into Life can only be attained by those who pick up their own cross and walk in TheWay. Thus, the disciples themselves witnessed this fact in the words: We must through many tribulations enter the Kingdom of God!" (Acts 14:22 NKJ).

                                          The Vow of the Nazirene: Genuine Spiritual revelation can only be received by those who are set apart unto the Lord, and live in accordance with the Vow of the Nazirene. To know the Mysteries of God, and learn directly from the Son of God in the Temple *within us*, we must live a purified and consecrated life and have no part darkness or conscious sin.

                                          The Orthodox Corruption of the Scriptures: Was the Bible rewritten? Prof. Nestle reflects the warning of many biblical scholars and writes: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

                                          To ignore the facts is to alienate oneself from the Living Word of God. Christians today are led in the wrong direction because they use the Bible that was re-written by the Church of Constantine.

                                          The Gospel of the Nazirenes: What did the Gospels look like before being edited and re-written by the Church of Rome? What were the original beliefs of the first followers of Yeshua/Jesus?

                                          You will be astonished when you read a surviving text of The Gospel of the Nazirenes which was hidden away from the corrupters of the Roman Church. Are you ready for a truly enlightening experience?

                                          The Unanswerable Question of Profound Importance: Can Christians believe in reincarnation? Or, is the opposite true, and you cannot even be considered a true follower of Yeshua/Jesus, and not believe in reincarnation?

                                          Modern Christianity is a Church in denial - ignoring what the Bible actually states to the detriment of believers! Enter the Light, let go of manmade doctrines, and learn the answer to the question that Christians today are unable to answer! It will shock you to learn the truth!


                                          Things Christians Don't Tell Jews About The New Testament: The Bible states that God inhibited the Jews from accepting Yeshua/Jesus.

                                          Once understood, the sin of Judas is synonymous with the same exact sin of modern Christians. God, Who Knows All, Knew the Gentiles would be unable to embrace the higher concepts of the teachings of TheWay. The teachings would become corrupted with Paganism, so Judaism needed to be separate in order to preserve the bedrock of truth which could once again emerge in the future.

                                          How Did Yeshua/Jesus Become the Son of God:

                                          The Bible teaches that Jesus was a man who became the Christ at his baptism, and the Son of God at the crucifixion. His disciples believed that *Jesus was a man who was in mystical union with the Indwelling* Logos/Word.

                                          What this means is that modern Christian dogma which is founded upon Plato's Doctrine of the Trinity, and forced upon the religion by the Pagan Emperor Constantine is what is believed by Christians today?

                                          History reveals that the followers of Yeshua/Jesus rejected the name Christian because it was already used by enlightened initiates into the Greek Mystery religions prior to the advent of Yeshua. History reveals that those who were taught directly by Yeshua, believed that Yeshua became the Messiah of God by virtue of a “supernatural union of a man and God...

                                          In their eyes, Jesus of Nazareth was a mere mortal, the legitimate son of Joseph and Mary: but he was the best and wisest of the human race, selected as the worthy instrument to restore upon earth the worship of the true and supreme Deity. When he was baptized in the Jordan, the Christ, the first of the aeons, the Son of God himself, descended on Jesus in the form of a dove, to inhabit his mind, and direct his actions during the allotted period of his ministry ”(Gibbon; The Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire, V.4, P.366).

                                          Which means that in worshiping Jesus instead of imitating him as the pattern for all to follow, modern Christian has reduced themselves to a people who worship a false god and are turned out of TheWay.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

                    Sat, March 11, 2006 - 8:53 AM
                    Oh now Stevie....how can you be so cold, cruel, callous.... but I can repent, I've been known to be stupid and humbled by it, and it would really be stupid of me to take your post serious.... and hey, how did you know I was a White Dog. :-) Portal baby to boot... (dogs are bitches)

                    BTY: Manind is way more than 5000 years old.... they have found artifacts that have been carved and dated back to around 30,000 years old which belonged to Tribes of beautiful, dark skinned "peaceful" people that are being known now as a Goddess culture.

                    Blessings to you Steve, and may you find the peace of mind and freedom to love, truly love God/Goddess without fear.

                    Om...

                    Peace be with you*
    • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

      Fri, March 10, 2006 - 4:38 AM
      Peace*

      Anne...quote: (lastly...I don't think the Jews (on a whole) would have as big a hang up with what color he was then those who would use ethnicity as somes type of proof to serve their own individual needs or agendas.)

      Yes you are right on one level. Of course the wisdom and Truth of God is not based on the color fo your skin. The Sun shines on All....but if the Truth of who Christ was were left untouched by hypocrasy, and NOT HIDDEN from the world/people for so many years,... the atrocities that happened to all black, brown, even yellow skinned people could have been avoided. Changing the face of Jesus to a white skinned alias gave the powerful the ticket to kil and try to take over the world, virtually away from the hands of all aboriginal, native beings on this planet. CONQUER AND DESTROY became the creed, in the name of God.

      Woe to those "whites" declaring God in THEIR name under the PRETENCE of some White firgure saying himself to be the ONLY God, its a shame.... the killings, the bloodshed, the barbarianism, the rape, the burnings, the WARs, the monetary take over of Babylon.... all in the name of God? (no wonder Jesus overturned the monet changers tables) THAT is something that needs to be shown now.... the TRUTH.

      There is no salvation in falsehood....

      Truth is what is important.... truth is what is being revealed.... it is time to face ourselves and of course.... embrace understanding with love.... in the power of truth....

      om....
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

        Fri, March 10, 2006 - 10:42 PM
        You have been culturally insensitive to white people whose feelings will be very hurt by this. I mean, of course if white people started rioting all over the world and causing total chaose, of course I would have to condemn such acts of incivility. Of course I am a man of peace. I mean, okay, if other people make war on my behalf and this allows me huge political gains, well, I can't lie and say I'd be upset. Oops, wait, my PR advisor just caught me saying this. He's like an accountant. Even though he's my employee, still he yells at me like shit if I don't keep to my "talking points." I swear, you'd think I should be the boss, but somehow everytime I hire a PR guy, he ends up my boss. That's why Karl Rove only has the job of "special advisor" or some such thing, but everyone above him runs for cover when he's pissed. People are afraid of their own accountant and PR men. PR men and accountants know they could be fired for insubordination, but it's just in their blood. You do what they say, even if you're the boss, or they come unglued. Go figure, so he's just ordered me to redo this:

        As a man of peace, I must condemn this racial insentivity to Anglos. They treasure the idol of a white Jesus. Only if Jesus is white could they picture him in a HUM-V patrolling the suburbs of either Dallas or Iraq. Oops, okay, sorry PR guy. Um, our white Jesus is a humble gentle Jesus and um, well, the "you are going to hell" part of what he said, was really mistranslated. So where the yicky translators keep putting the phrase, "torture in hell for eternity," scratch that and put "love and peace." Well, no we won't actually change the words to the words love and peace because we're kind of culturally attached to saying hell and torture when we mean love and peace. But trust us, we're all about peace.

        Anyway, where was I. Oh yeah, so of course we don't want Anglos around the earth to start rioting, even if we, no wait. We must condemn the violence. That's it. Now my PR guy is smiling. Whew! I tell you, he puts so much pressure on me. Okay, so let's see. So we must insist that you never post a Jesus image of any color other than white because of the tender hurt feelings of our traditional Christians. Granted we just made up this tradition a while back ago, but. . . . oops, sorry PR guy. Um, so the ancient traditions of peace and love we hold and the tenderness of our feelings mandate that we kindly and gently and humbly ask you . . .oooh good, he's smiling now. I'm almost through this. Mandate that you please not colorize Jesus, (and here my PR boss says we can use the Saudi method), but you may be permitted to do so in the privacy of your own homes, but not in public, because that could disturb the cultural sensitvities of our peace loving and tolerant people. Um right, more on the tolerant. We are a tolerant people who seek only peaceful coexistence. True the Book of Revelations says you will be fried for eternity for small doctrinal dis . . . okay, okay. Um, tolerant, tolerant, tolerant. Whew! Okay, he's let me off the hook now cause I stuck with the buzz words. Anyway, just between you and me, I have a black Madonna in my bedroom, but I hide it from my family. Psst. Mother Mary is actually God but don't tell Ralph Reed I said so because he knows my PR guy who, thankfully has stepped out of the room.
        • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

          Fri, March 10, 2006 - 10:55 PM
          Then again, perhaps JESUS was Blue....(like Krishna). Or maybe just Black & Blue. Yes, that's it. Didn't he get the snot beaten out of Him? Or was that some other SonofaGod? Maybe Mel Gibson would know....
          • JESUS was Black...

            Sat, March 11, 2006 - 9:11 AM


            Central to the ancient wisdom is the concept of the divine spark or seed buried within each person. It was the purpose of the ancient mysteries to bring to life this divine spark so that it would illuminate life on this earth. This divine spark was symbolised by various figures at different times and in different places. Their names were Horus, Orpheus, Dionysus, Mithra, Krishna, Christ, Buddha, Adonis, Tammuz, Jesus, Hercules and so on.

            They were all "pagan" Christs. The philosophers of the ancient world knew that these figures were symbolic, and not historical men.

            Some 2,000 years ago in the area of the eastern Mediterranean, the divine soul or spark within was called the Christ (from karast or krist, Egyptian for the annointed mummy). Early Christianity was a re-statement of the ancient wisdom."...Christians of any intelligence during the first two centuries at least did not regard their movement as the bearer of the first light into the heathen darkness, but only the republication of very ancient truth."

            "The indwelling god is himself being brought to birth within the womb of humanity. Each individual is gestating a divinity within the deeps of his own nature. Christianity has fervently exhorted us to look into the empyrean to find the unapproachable God.All the while the infant deity slumbers unheeded within the heart. Christianity has largely nullified the force of St. Paul's almost frantic cry to us: 'Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is within you?'
            • Re: JESUS was Black...

              Sat, March 11, 2006 - 9:17 AM

              Buddha, Krishna (Christ) , Jesus, were all the same person fictional characters (Mohammed was fictional too)

              They were the Dog Star (This begins with the Myth of Asar, Aset, and Horus)

              *This is Star Wars George Lucas PLAGERIZED and STOLE this story and made millions

              The Origin of the Trinity, the father, the sun, and the holy spirit. Horus comes up at the "Hor-izon". He is born, this is the beginning, 12:00 he is the "Most High", and then the Sun "Sets", hence "Set" or "Satan", the prince of darkness does battle with the light of the world and wins, until the Sun is re-born the next day.

              This is a representation of the evolution of life and all the so called religions

              This is also symbolized in India, there is Brahma, the Father, Vishnu, the Son, and Shiva.

              Krishna (karast or krist) is Buddha, Yeshua (Jesus) the "Ancient Egypt" Christ (Horus)

              “Buddha is considered to be an incarnation of *Krishna or Vishnu. (*In the Buddhist belief system, Krishna is an incarnation of Buddha by the way*) -Dazzel

              It's the same with the Goddess.

              The word Christ is from Krishna (Christna). Krishna was a great avatar
              (savior) in India 3000 years before Jesus. The name of the historical
              man was Jehoshua (or Jeshua), not Jesus.

              the four noble truths and the 8th foldpath is from Maat

              The original cross used by the early Christians was the Egyptian ANKH, a
              looped cross which symbolizes everlasting life. The white man's false
              replacement - the crucifix, is a symbol of death.

              The evolution of consciousness is symbolized by the Solar Barque moving through the Duat. In this context the "hours" (Horus from book of the dead) of travel represent stages of development. at a certain "hour" the individual meets the "Rebel in the Soul," (2) that is, at the "hour of spiritual transformation." And translating from the scroll (myth): "the soul warns, only if a man is allowed to continue evolving, can the intellect reach the heart."

              www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw...imo2.htm
          • Re: Perhaps JESUS was Black...

            Sun, December 10, 2006 - 1:08 PM
            yeah, bronze-colored feet, according to biblical descriptions, but yeah, if it makes you feel better, maybe he was blue!

            pause

            pause

            pause

            pause

            pause

            pause

            pause

            NOT!!!
  • He was a priest, and his name was St. Nicholas. In fact we do have proof that he was born in the Middle East, in what is now Turkey, by the southern coast I think. He died in about the 340's AD.

    So to utilize the example of Santa Clause to prove Jesus didn't exist is a bad example. It may however reflect that the story of Jesus may have been changed a bit in time. Just as the Story of St. Nicholas received a few embellishments over time; the story of Jesus an innocent Palestinian Jew who was murdered by those who hated what he stood for also may have received a few embellishments over time.

    What people do not understand is that yes, religion absolutely adheres to no form of logic; however some have an interesting take on it, like me. I believe that one may show one’s faith through one’s actions by mimicking the kindness of others. We do it all the time during Christmas, but most of us do not know why. Similarly others mimic the kind action of individuals like Mother Theresa, and others because their actions lead us to support what they believe even if it does not adhere to logic. I think it is called faith or something. We exhibit that trust not in reference to logic, but in reference to the selfless actions of those that we respect.

    However I think it is wrong for people to impose their personal beliefs on others, and say that something that does not adhere to logic, as we know it, should be the law of the land. This causes people to hate something they do not understand. The negativity should be attributed to those who utilize religion for negative action, like for instance forbidding people to have abortions, or use condoms. Religion is a personal choice that should not be forced on others where religion fails (as someone else noted before).

    Surprisingly enough, I am a Catholic, not because of logic, but because of Mother Theresa, and people like her in the faith. I also support the actions of those that are secular as well, and respect them in the same light.

    Now in relation to whether or not Jesus was Black, much of History has been changed, especially the History of Africa. It is where Civilization began, and was taken to civilize Europe. This may upset those who wish to enslave Africans, thus many of us do not realize the great civilizations that have been around for centuries. Africans and “Latin Americans” have only been “poor” for the past 500 years. I even remember a huge door from the ancient civilization of Cush, which was in Ireland for quite some time, and was recently returned to Ethiopia. Furthermore the concept of the “Renaissance Man” came from Timbuktu in Mali, which was a center for learning. All in all, we are all the same whether we like it or not. People choose to separate us for their own benefit, and succeed, and many follow like pawns. All history is everybody’s history, it is a shame that many are too stupid to realize it, and have worked hard to destroy our great history.




    • oops my bad
      <that have been around for centuries>

      thousands of Years, instead of hundreds. Tools found in Africa with remains show that tools may have been used for even longer, maybe even millions of years.

      • Actually Evil C it's you I'll have to break the news to...don't mess with me this is God intelligence

        The shocking truth is Santa Claus originated from a character identified as the devil or Satan. (like you Evil C)

        www.av1611.org/othpubls/santa.html

        *sorry i have to repost this because Tribe is such BS and the search function doesn't work to post the tribe link

        The startling fact is, Santa Claus is not the Bishop St. Nicholas – but his Dark Helper!

        again these (your) Saints are nothing but lies...

        Santa is really an anagram for Satan. You know... breaking into houses late at night, dodgy preference for small children, wearing long kinky boots, and psychotic reindeer with militaristic nicknames. Nicholas = 'Old Nick'; at home in the flaming fireplace. And Santa's little helpers - those elves. Fallen angels more likely. Elves. Evil. Devil. See the connection?

        let's dig into it just a bit further, as the mythology of Santa Claus has a long and interesting history.

        The oft-repeated tale of Santa Claus goes like this:

        According to the legend, Santa began as a fourth century Catholic bishop named Saint Nicholas. The cult of St. Nicholas was one of histories most widespread religious movements. According to St. Nicholas historian, Charles W. Jones, ". . . the cult of St. Nicholas was, before the Reformation, the most intensive of any nonbiblical saint in Christendom. . . there were 2,137 ecclesiastical dedications [churches] to Nicholas in France, Germany, and the Low Countries alone before the year 1500." (Jones, Charles. W. "Knickerbocker Santa Claus." The New-York Historical Society Quarterly, October 1954, Volume XXXVIII Number Four, p.357)

        The mysterious St. Nicholas.

        The first major problem in the Santa Claus saga is the person of St. Nicholas. There is very little evidence, if any, that the man St. Nicholas actually existed.

        Nicholas' existence is not attested by any historical document, so nothing certain is known of his life except that he was probably bishop of Myra in the fourth century. . .
        ("Nicholas, Saint" Encyclopaedia Britannica 99)

        Nicholas, Saint (lived 4th century), Christian prelate, patron saint of Russia, traditionally associated with Christmas celebrations. The accounts of his life are confused and historically unconfirmed.
        ("Nicholas, Saint" Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 99)

        Unfortunately, very little is known about the real St. Nicholas. Countless legends have grown up around this very popular saint, but very little historical evidence is available. (Del Re, Gerard and Patricia. The Christmas Almanack. New York: Random House, 2004, p. 130)

        In 1969, the final nail in the coffin to the feeble fable of St. Nicholas was officially hammered down. Despite the fact, St. Nicholas is among Roman Catholicism’s most popular and venerated "Saints," Pope Paul VI officially decreed the feast of Saint Nicholas removed from the Roman Catholic calendar. UPI Wire Services reported that St. Nicholas and forty other saints were deleted because "of doubt that they ever existed." ("Pope Marches 40 Saints Off Official Church Calendar." UPI Wire Services. <www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix

        Because the saint's life is so unreliably documented, Pope Paul VI ordered the feast of Saint Nicholas dropped from the official Roman Catholic calendar in 1969. ("Santa Claus" Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 99)

        When examined with historical facts, the oft-repeated history of Santa is so full of gross errors it ranks among histories greatest goofs.

        The final death-blow to the traditional tale of Santa Claus is the belief that Santa Claus is actually the mystic Bishop St. Nicholas. We previously established that no historical evidence exists collaborating the person of St. Nicholas, but ignoring that serious blunder for a few minutes, let us investigate the fable that Santa and St. Nicholas are the same.

        The truth is, there exists no factual connection from St. Nicholas to Santa Claus. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. Every serious researcher into the origin of Santa Claus verifies this fact. A few examples, among hundreds, validates our ironclad case:
        Years of research confirmed that initial doubt: Santa Claus is an Americanization, all right, but not of a Catholic Saint. . . Despite a century of repetition, this story is simply untrue. . . (Siefker, Phyllis. Santa Claus, Last of the Wild Men: The Origins and Evolution of Saint Nicholas. Jefferson: McFarland & Company, Inc., 1997, pp. 5,7)

        The dilemma was solved by transferring the visit of the mysterious man whom the Dutch called Santa Claus from December 5 to Christmas, and by introducing a radical change in the figure itself. It was not merely a "disguise," but the ancient saint was completely replaced by an entirely different character. . .With the Christian saint whose name he still bears, however this Santa Claus has really nothing to do. (Weiser, Francis X. Handbook of Christian Feasts and Customs. New York: Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc., 1952, p. 114)

        Where did Santa come from?

        Nearly all Santa researchers agree that some traits of Santa was borrowed from Norse [Scandinavian] mythology.
        Encyclopedia Britannica describes the role of Nordic mythology in the life of Santa:

        Sinterklaas was adopted by the country's English-speaking majority under the name Santa Claus, and his legend of a kindly old man was united with old Nordic folktales of a magician who punished naughty children and rewarded good children with presents. ("Santa Claus" Encyclopaedia Britannica 99)

        Some Santa researchers associate Santa with the Norse "god" of Odin or Woden. Crichton describes Odin as riding through the sky on an eight-legged, white horse name Sleipnir.

        Mythologist Helene Adeline Guerber presents a very convincing case tracing Santa to the Norse god Thor in Myths of Northern Lands:
        Thor was the god of the peasants and the common people. He was represented as an elderly man, jovial and friendly, of heavy build, with a long white beard. His element was the fire, his color red. The rumble and roar of thunder were said to be caused by the rolling of his chariot, for he alone among the gods never rode on horseback but drove in a chariot drawn by two white goats (called Cracker and Gnasher). He was fighting the giants of ice and snow, and thus became the Yule-god. He was said to live in the "Northland" where he had his palace among icebergs. By our pagan forefathers he was considered as the cheerful and friendly god, never harming the humans but rather helping and protecting them. The fireplace in every home was especially sacred to him, and he was said to come down through the chimney into his element, the fire. (Guerber, H.A. Myths of Northern Lands. New York: American Book Company, 1895, p. 61)

        The unusual and common characteristics of Santa and Thor are too close to ignore.

        • An elderly man, jovial and friendly and of heavy build.
        • With a long white beard.
        • His element was the fire and his color red.
        • Drove a chariot drawn by two white goats, named called Cracker and Gnasher.
        • He was the Yule-god. (Yule is Christmas time).
        • He lived in the Northland (North Pole).
        • He was considered the cheerful and friendly god.
        • He was benevolent to humans.
        • The fireplace was especially sacred to him.
        • He came down through the chimney into his element, the fire.


        It is ironic that Thor’s symbol was a hammer. A hammer is also the symbolic tool of the carpenter – Santa Claus. It is also worth mentioning that Thor’s helpers were elves and like Santa’s elves, Thor’s elves were skilled craftsman. It was the elves who created Thor’s magic hammer.

        The startling fact is, Santa Claus is not the Bishop St. Nicholas – but his Dark Helper!

        In certain German children’s games, the Saint Nicholas figure itself is the Dark Helper, a devil who wants to punish children, but is stopped from doing so by Christ. (Renterghem, Tony van. When Santa Was a Shaman. St. Paul: Llewellyn Publications, 1995, p. 105)


        Black Pete, the ‘grandfather’ of our modern Santa Claus. Known in Holland as Zwarte Piet, this eighteenth-century German version, is—like his ancient shamanic ancestor—still horned, fur-clad, scary, and less than kind to children. Although portrayed as the slave helper of Saint Nicholas, the two are, in many villages, blended into one character. This figure often has the name Nikolass or Klaus, but has the swarthy appearance of the Dark Helper. (Renterghem, Tony van. When Santa Was a Shaman. St. Paul: Llewellyn Publications, 1995, p. 98)

        Artist Thomas Nast is rightfully credited for conceiving the image of our modern day Santa, but Nast’s model for Santa was not the Bishop St. Nicholas but his dark companion, the evil Pelznickle.

        The Christmas demon Knecht Rupprecht first appeared in a play in 1668 and was condemned by the Roman Catholic as being a devil in 1680. . . To the Pennsylvania Dutch, he is known as Belsnickel. Other names for the same character are Pelznickle, "Furry Nicholas," and Ru-Klas, "Rough Nicholas." From these names, it is easy to see that he is looked upon as not merely a companion to St. Nicholas, but almost another version of him.

        Saint Nicholas of Myra was a saint who lived back in the 4th Century in Byzantia (modern-day Turkey) who had the reputation of secretly giving gifts to the poor. Most famously, legend has it that he presented three desperately poor daughters of a Christian with dowries so they wouldn't end up as prostitutes.

        St. Nicholas is still revered as the patron saint of seamen, merchants, archers, children, prisoners, pawnbrokers, and even prostitutes. He's also one of the patron saints of Russia, now that I think about it. A busy guy.

        Saint Nicholas of Turkey (from Wikipedia)
        Saint Nick inspired two legends: Nikolaus in Germany, and Sinterklaas in the Netherlands, both of which directly contributed to the legend of Santa Claus himself.
        see that’s where St. Nick comes from but not Santa (Satan) Claus

        This historical character was the inspiration for a mythical figure known as Nikolaus in Germany and Sinterklaas in the Netherlands and Flanders, which in turn was the inspiration for Santa Claus. Sinterklaas (a contracted form of Sint Nicolaas) is a major celebration in the Netherlands and in Flander


        Santa Claus, the uncrowned hero of Christmas, out shadowed the real protagonist of Christmas, only in the last two centuries. This mythology is sponsored and manufactured by merchants (Coca Cola), bankers and corporations who decided the holidays should be the time where their profits should increase. Santa Claus is the ultimate proof that mythologies have a financial component.

        The real heroes of Christmas are of course the pagan Sun-gods that were born on the day of Christmas and Winter Solstice. The most famous and latest addition to the list of savior gods born on Dec 25th if Jesus of Nazareth. Before him people from all over the world, celebrated Christmas in the shape of Winter Solstice ceremony dedicated to gods such as Horus of Egypt, Attis of Turkey, Apollo of Greece and Rome, Marduk and Mythras of Mesopotamia just to name a few.

        How did Santa Claus snatched Christmas away from the Sun deities is a long story but I've tried to make it brief.

        Stories and heroes, like people, reincarnate. They die and reborn shifting shapes, changing names, adopting to new cultures and resurrecting when they are most in need.
        • Chaz, you really are getting corny now. Linking to some fundy xtian site, that believes Santa is the devil, in order to prove a point is corny as you can get. ;P

          The Santa Claus legend is actually an amalgam. The St. Nicholas legend is a big part of it, and it doesn't really matter if ol' St. Nick was ever a real person or not.

          A lot of the way we see 'Santa' today though, came from Lapp amanita shamanism. The north pole, the flying reindeer, the red and white suit, the 'sack full of gifts,' the entry through the chimney... all of that is related to amanita muscaria shamanism in Lappland. The reindeer love the amanitas, and after consuming them they run and leap faster and higher than they otherwise could, thus the Lapp legends of reindeer eating amanitas and flying, thus the flying reindeer. The Lapp shamans would traditionally arrive at gatherings through the roof. It wasn't exactly a chimney, they had these sort of squat teepees, but anyway the shaman came in through the roof bearing a sack full of "gifts"... mushrooms in this case. And amanita muscarias are red with white spots... same color scheme as Santas suit. And even if they don't *quite* live at the north pole... it's close enough.

          So really, Santa is a combination of St. Nicholas and an amanita shaman. The connection with Odin and Thor comes about because they both were also associated with amanitas.
          • Re: la de da

            Sun, March 12, 2006 - 9:47 PM
            That brings up the Nerthus / Njor�e connection to christmas rituals, and of course my favorite anti-Santa, Knecht Rupercht....
  • I remember Jay-Z said...

    Mon, March 13, 2006 - 9:57 PM
    .....I didn't pass the bar, but I know a little bit.


    Many people can say many things about many religions, and they have that right. There are many things in religion that have parallels to “pagan” rituals, and symbols. I need not go into candles, and what have you. Even Voodoo, Santeria, and Catholicism have parallels, so it is easy for someone to say, Oh yeah its the devil, its all based on evil, but that’s just one take on it. Others decide to view it their own personal way.

    Here is a news breaker: Prove that you exist?

    You really can’t. No one can. You see, you look at what is in front of you, and you say, it’s a desk, but in reality it is a bunch of molecules bound together in a unique fashion. But we have been taught that it is a desk, because that is what we perceive, and what we have been taught. You have been taught that Santa is the devil, so that is what you believe and you have the right to believe that, as that is the unique fashion in which you perceive Santa. I perceive Santa in relation to a story about a priest who utilized just action. There is proof that Santa was named after Nicholas, which is not refuted. We continually discover so for us to say that we know truth, we would be complete idiots. That is why I admit that much does not adhere to reason, but my personal belief is instituted as such. I really do not want to be one of those incompetent individuals that claim the world is flat when indeed it is round.

    How do you know that you are not just energy, and all of what is in front of you is a farce? Do you not dream? Do you have a parallel existence? It is very hard to tell, so my personal take is that nothing is concrete. We are now learning more about matter each day. I seriously doubt you want me to fully discuss Juan Estrada’s thesis that got him into Fermilab, as it may open your mind a bit too much (pun intended). Or even wave structure matter ( one reason I love leary).

    lol




    • Re: I remember Jay-Z said...

      Mon, March 13, 2006 - 10:01 PM
      "Actually Evil C it's you I'll have to break the news to...don't mess with me this is God intelligence"
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: I remember Jay-Z said...

        Sun, December 10, 2006 - 4:15 PM
        after all this posting, I might have missed this on this thread: white? black? semetic? hametic?
        I'm 'white' and I think the term's stupid. white means eurasian lacking skin pigmentation. europe was over run by many asian peoples and some more southern asian types. All in the span of 3000 yrs. The middle east was the conflence of asian, african, 'white' and, what?, Mediterrianian semetic & hametic? I'm not a scholar. Yet I see alot of 'pollution' of linage here. East Africa trade routes were happening all that time, I don't see how there wasn't quite abit of mixing going on for millenia, not to mention Ethiopia, Sudan, Timbuktu to Cairo.
        Jesus might well have been black according to current standards. 3000yrs is nothing. 110000 yrs ago we had the same African Mother according to mitocondrial DNA analysis. I put a bunch more faith on that bit of evidence than any papiri or scripture.