[Chanced on this and thougt it worth a glance.]

By RACHEL ZOLL AND ERIC GORSKI, AP Religion Writers Sat May 3, 2:34 AM ET

Conservative Christian leaders who believe the word "evangelical" has lost its religious meaning plan to release a starkly self-critical document saying the movement has become too political and has diminished the Gospel through its approach to the culture wars.
The statement, called "An Evangelical Manifesto," condemns Christians on the right and left for "using faith" to express political views without regard to the truth of the Bible, according to a draft of the document obtained Friday by The Associated Press.
"That way faith loses its independence, Christians become `useful idiots' for one political party or another, and the Christian faith becomes an ideology," according to the draft.
The declaration, scheduled to be released Wednesday in Washington, encourages Christians to be politically engaged and uphold teachings such as traditional marriage. But the drafters say evangelicals have often expressed "truth without love," helping create a backlash against religion during a "generation of culture warring."
"All too often we have attacked the evils and injustices of others," they wrote, "while we have condoned our own sins." They argue, "we must reform our own behavior."
The document is the latest chapter in the debate among conservative Christians about their role in public life. Most veteran leaders believe the focus should remain on abortion and marriage, while other evangelicals — especially in the younger generation — are pushing for a broader agenda. The manifesto sides with those seeking a wide-range of concerns beyond "single-issue politics."
Among the signers of the manifesto are Os Guiness, a well-known evangelical author and speaker, and Richard Mouw, president of Fuller Theological Seminary, a leading evangelical school in Pasadena, Calif. Organizers declined to comment until the final document is released.
They say more than 80 evangelicals have signed the statement, although only a few names have been released. A. Larry Ross, spokesman for the authors, said the theologicans and Christian leaders involved are seeking to "go back to the root theological meaning of the term evangelical."
Some champions of traditional culture war issues are not among the supporters.
Richard Land, head of the public policy arm for the Southern Baptist Convention, said through a spokeswoman that he has not seen the document and was not asked to sign it.
James Dobson, the influential founder of Focus on the Family, a Christian group in Colorado Springs, Colo., did not sign the document, said Gary Schneeberger, a Dobson spokesman. Schneeberger would not say whether Dobson had read the manifesto or had been asked to sign on.
Phil Burress, an Ohio activist who networks with national evangelical leaders, said that if high-profile evangelical leaders such as Dobson and Land don't support the document, "it's like throwing a pebble in the ocean" and will carry no weight.
But the drafters hope they can start a movement among evangelicals to reflect and act on the document. "We must find a new understanding of our place in public life," the drafters wrote.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080...l_manifesto


posted by:
Josh
Boca Raton
  • James Dobson is a false prophet and god is a superstition.
    • AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH!

      Do you know what a false prophet is?

      I must have missed where James Dobson was prophesying. Wow, please enlighten me. Please show me where James Dobson was prophesying in the name of God, because I need to read it, as I have never heard anything of the like coming from him after all these years of listening to him. If you can show me his prophesies I will have to read them and then judge for myself if they are false.
      • Rein it in, Wendy. I was making a 'There Will Be Blood' reference. James Dobson is not worthy of any actual commentary.

        youtube.com/watch
        • James Dobson isn't "worth" a plywood box to bury him in!
          He is RABIDLY Anti-Gay and Anti-Black and his so-called Colorado Springs Church TEACHES this to it's followers with it's "Focus on the Family" Crap. Dobson believes Christians will "Rule the World" with their "Pure Family Oriented Morality" SURE...."Pure" WHITE Heterosexual "Morality".
          Dobson wants a "Pure white heterosexually married Race of Christians the same way Hitler wanted a "Pure race of Germans".
          • If Evangelicals such as Dobson are so concerned that their Faith is now "Too Political" then they should keep their Faith OUT OF Politics and Inside their own Churches.
            • I agree with Jake. And yet... I don't feel like unscrambling those eggs.


              Maybe a bit.

              So....................................... Mr. Dobson doesn't like what others do with their bodies...
              "One stroke at a time, Sweet Jesus'?
              Doesn't like the body, judges others on a presumption, wants another in Heaven,
              things they have a right to a Harvest/Rapture, all the time hating on anyone else
              not of his own squandered mind... Sorry about that, Sir... callin' 'em as I see 'em!

              On the note of Heaven... vis-a-vis balance between eternal state and temporary life here...

              WHO SAYS anyone deserves an eternity of bliss after experiencing a pitifully short life of
              half-assed bullshit and prematurely judging others? NOT ME!

              Check this out!: God is eternally working, all throughout time and past beyond and through it,
              YET is experiencing *constant* bliss. Think about it....
              • Now... get ready for this...

                Which do you want?

                Heaven, or Ever Recurrent Death?

                And guess what? That's just you being continuously forgetful and forgetting to leave Malkuth.

                (Though there are certainly reasons for coming back that have nothing to do with *needing* personally to be here.)

                Therefore...ROAM!

                And guess what?

                There are 'Hidden Teachers' that might not even know they are practising,
                but are here doing as they do, TRYING TO GET YOU NOT TO JUDGE,
                and/or hate yourself, or others... I don't want to point them out, even to themselves...

                That would be like blowing their cover... I won't rat out Valerie Plame for political advantage...

                Startin' to get the picture?
                • <ever recurrent Death>?
                  and...this occurs When? Perhaps only in the Christian Faith as in "everlasting Life with Jesus" or recurrent Death with Satan??
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    I cannot explain all that right now.

                    By ERD I mean no escape from the physical realm-- Malkuth.

                    Therefore, in a sense, reincarnation... if you are lucky.

                    If you choose to soul-shrivel, that is your own choice.

                    All the same, convictions cause convicts.
                    I have thought to some degree beyond the system I use.
                    Yet I still go back to iron out the details.
                    • "If you choose to soul-shrivel, that is your own choice."

                      I meant this in a general sense. Not intended whatsoever to reflect on Jake.

                      Some simply refuse to believe in themselves. And others.

                      The soul has undoubted versatility and resilience.

                      When others project hate on a group and 'condemn them to hell' based upon *limited* understanding,
                      they just put more blockages between themselves and God. More distasteful emotions to deal with, upon death.
                      • Who suffers so that the ignorant shall learn?

                        Why do the ignorant and gluttonous and control-issue fundamentalists desire nothing but more division,
                        xenophobia, racial hatred and squabbling over land?

                        I saw on a religious channel a 'preacher' stating that the Tetragrammaton was inscribed into the hills
                        of Lebanon... GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK!!

                        For what reason? So you could kill each other over some mountains?
                        The whole universe, you parochial bastards! His realm is....
                        He really doesn't give a shit about your land-grabbing. He cares about you!

                        Now, Islam and Jihadism... I can't even start to tell you...
                        but there is fault on all sides...
                      • When I see a sign that says "God Hates Fags" I want to start breaking faces.

                        I'm not kidding. And I have the energy.
                        • Oh, so God hates, does he? What do you think he hates?
                          • God doesn't hate homosexuals, moronic people with no idea (IMO) of what God is all about do.
                            • Even for that sign to be projected as a value statement by ANY christians really pisses me the hell off...
                              Then, and I can't be sure about this, they might have even had signs that projected hate for homosexual
                              servicemen and women. Not good. Whassup, Michael?

                              The funny and inevitable fact is whether people like it or not, they evolve and learn.
                              Not really much choice...
                              • The funny part about my belief is, I never really wanted to...

                                I was just too curious... he snared me.
                                • Wormhole
                                  Why would any Sane Person wish to "escape from the physical realm"?
                                  A belief in a Faith is an escape to a Fantasyland from Looooong ago. It's no better an "Escape Mechanism" than say Hard Drinking or Using Hard Drugs.
                                  Only Grounded people who LIVE in the here-and-now need no "escape mechanisms" such as Drugs Alcohol or a belief in a Fanciful Faith.
                                  • The Here-And-Now doesn't always take place in this universe.
                                    'Grounded'? Funny you should say that.

                                    Kill it, put it in the earth, maybe it will stay around to make your crops grow.

                                    But most likely it would be pissed at your inhospitality and decide to take a few thousand
                                    years off from human ilk.

                                    All that is, is all there is? Meaning, when man thought there was a giant encircling sea around the
                                    lands surrounding the Mediterranean, was that all there was? Or was his ability to see the greater
                                    'surroundings' too limited. IOW, was the universe still there, even though he just thought it was a
                                    mechanized 'celestial sphere'?
                                  • > escape from the physical realm <

                                    Just how is my belief in Jesus Christ (Faith) an "escape from the physical realm."?

                                    I live in the real, physical world. I pay bills, get sick, have good days and have bad days. I have a physical body with aches and pains, a bad heart that I have to take medication for, a wife of 24 years, 2 teenage children 1 of which is rebellious as hell, and 2 dogs. I have a mortgage that I pay for, a job that I have to go to for 8+ hours a day.

                                    How can you possibly make a blanket statement comparing someone believing in a faith of any type comparable to someone who is into Hard Drinking and Hard Drugs?

                                    Yes, I have seen things that I cannot explain with my limited knowledge of science but I don't automatically chalk those up as Supernatural even though I do believe that there is a "realm" beyond our current knowledge base that science cannot yet explain, if ever.

                                    I'm as grounded in my world Jake as you are in yours which just happens to be the same world. Satan is not the cause my difficulties. For example, my heart is bad not because of the devil or Satan or Lucifier or whatever whatever you want to call it, it's because of to many double cheeseburgers and to many days surfing from the couch. I am tired of people making blanket statements about people of faith when those statements are flat out not true.
                                    • A belief in a Faith is an escape Michael
                                      an escape to a fictional comfort zone that does not exist.
                                      Drinking excessive alcohol or the taking of Drugs creates the same kind of "escape" as a belief in a Faith does,only with drastically more dangerous results.
                                      Truly "grounded" persons need no "comfort zone" of any kind.
                                      "but Jesus Comforts me"....WHY? Why is there this driving NEED in one's life for this Escape mechanism (Jesus Christ) to comfort them?
                                      • Jake buddy, are you saying that no comfort zone exist at all in your life? Your homes, the arms of your partner are not comfort zones for you?

                                        Jesus Christ is not an escape mechanism. My need for Jesus in my life has nothing to do with escaping anything but rather my faith in Christ fulfills a need within my being. I can't explain it beyond that...I wish I could. And who really cares if I do draw comfort from Christ? Why does it matter in the least to anyone other then myself if praying to God brings me a sense of peace? In reality why does it matter to me if anyone else even thinks it's real or not because it's not going to change the fact that it is real to me. I think you’re off base when making the alcohol and drug comparisons as I’ve been down that road and I'll take Jesus over any one of those any day. Yeah drugs and alcohol can mask your problems short term and often end up causing more of them. Christ on the other hand forces me to tackle them head on and not run away from them. Jesus never said that it was going to be easy just to place all our cares on him, meaning stop worrying about shit so much, live your life as best you can and keep your affairs in order.

                                        I'm going to take a stab at the original question. It disgust me when politicians play to what they think is the "Christian" vote and equally disgust me when Christian's like sheep line up to embrace them. Last I checked God gave us all minds to use. Christians need to use them and base their decisions of who they are going to vote for based upon what is best for the country. Stop listening to the so called Mega Church preachers and vote your conscience. Contrary to popular belief not all Christians are conservative or neo cons they're just the ones who get the most press because of their "holier then thou" views. Likewise a Christian, Muslim or anyone of any type of faith in public office should also make decisions based upon what is right for the country. Decisions should be weighed against the Constitution of the United States and not the Bible or the Koran.
  • I think this is the result of the fact that most of the evangelicals who bought into the culture war and voted republican expecting America to become a church picnic got several good years of republican control in all three branches of government... and didn't get what they were promised. Instead, most evangelical christians being working class they just got poorer as television's content remained just as raunchy during hours where children could watch, safety from crime became just as much an issue... all of the things they wanted changed to "protect their community's values" from hollywood and elsewhere remained the same because the party of republicans is run by big money and sex sells.

    It's very obvious to them now that they were not leading the republican party, but rather they were a pawn in it, used and then forgotten.

    In a strange way I'm almost sympathetic, it's the same way that the corperate owned dem candidates manipulate liberal activists as their pawns... on the day we see dems with unchallenged power in all three branches of government we'll also see no real liberal progress occur either... even with the alledged votes to be able to make real changes.

    It's still big money owning both parties, setting ideologues on the left and right against one another to make it look like a vital democratic process is happing. It's still an aristocracy, but I'd hate to rain on an idealist's parade when they talk about Obama as if he were actually like a Nader with a better speaking style. They'll get their wake up call too, and feel manipulated and used the way the evangelicals feel now that they could write such a documuent.

    The culture war was never anything more than a social engineering trick to keep the working class divided against itself, nice payout too, left and right alike we pay more for everything and with salaries that have stayed flat or in some cases been driven downward.
    • Agree'd Prophet
      The Evangelicals do now realise that their "Dream of an Evangelical America" with it's "Perfectly Christian Values" is not to be!
      Perhaps they will now realise the methodology in wich they were USED and keep their Faith in their Churches among their Faithful and keep their "Evangelical Agenda's" out of the Political Arena.
      • American Government will "Use" whatever is available to further whatever it's agenda is wether than person is a Drug Supplier ,a Member of a Mafia or a Holy Person of God.
        Everyone get's "Used" in Our American System of Government.
        • Amen.

          The older I get the more and more I am beginning to feel that it just doesn't matter any more. I am disenfranchised with the system as it currently is and it seems that most people are as well but look at the choices we are given every election cycle. Lewis Black said it best when he said that we are presented with 2 bowls of shit and the only difference is the smell. These people are supposed to represent the people but unless your tossing millions and millions their way they could give a shit about you.

          I don't know how to change it. I don't know how to make a difference any longer.

          GW, being a Christian Fundamentalist has led us down a path of increased violence. Christians, which I include myself in that definition, should not use war to advance national objectives. The most violent people on the planet could very well be us Christians and fundamentalists are the most violent of them all. I believe that GW thinks he is doing the right thing, however following the bible with a passion without allowing Jesus to be the center piece of how you interpret and apply it to your life can itself become a very destructive thing, People who love God, love the bible, teach the bible are missing the Jesus Factor that dis mantles the violence. Without the Jesus Factor, the bible is going to motivate violence...just ask abortion doctors. Christians need to get back to the Jesus of the bible because doing so would force us all to become much nicer people.
          • Aggree'd Michael
            However,the Bible as it exist's "promotes Violence" mostly becuase it is not clear "what" It's message really is. It is a Book of Ancient Writings no longer relevant for a Changing and continuously Evolving Society and there are simply too many ways it can be interpreted.
            One way is to be a big believer in "What Jesus Says" and another way is to be a follower of the negative aspects of the teachings of the Bible itself.
            Until the Bible is 100% CLEAR as to it's Message,Christians will continue to wage this "Holy War" on fellow Christians and non Christians.
            A "difference of opinion" on the Holy Bible's "Message" is what fuels this continuing Holy War.
            • A very GOOD example of this Continuing difference of opinion within the SAME Faith belief taken from the SAME Holy Bible is the still-going-on Conflict in Northern Ireland bettween the Catholics and Protestants.
              The Holy Bible fuels Violence!
            • Jake, the bible is clear, it's man's understanding that isn't. Far too many people twist it to mean all kinds of things to suit their agenda’s. Entire congregations are formed over what begins as one man’s or one woman’s interpretation of a passage or theme and then we (Christians) end up fighting amongst one another over the “real” meaning of it when all that really matters is do you believe that Jesus was the son of God and in his sacrifice for mankind. We need to stop pointing fingers at one another, fighting with one another and trying to prove one another wrong and get off our butt’s and do what Jesus told us do. No wonder church attendance worldwide is on the decline when all people see is us doing is fighting amongst ourselves.

              Imagine the power and the change that followers of Christ could have if they only united. If we pooled our resources we could wipe out hunger in the world, homelessness, and a plethora of other things that plague the human race.

              You know that I wholeheartedly disagree with you, Jason, Swarm and the majority of others in this tribe but the problem is we are giving you NOTHING visible or tangible to even try to grab hold of. We are not showing you Jesus by our very actions and words. I can’t help but believe that if we Christians would just be the people that God has called us to be, then our planet would be a much happier place and that people would be more willing to take a listen at what the kingdom of God is all about.

              Jason, your question as to what defines a true Christian goes to the heart of the matter. A true Christian accepts the gift of God through Christ Jesus in their hearts. Upon acceptance of that gift noticeable change takes place in their lives. Christians are like politicians, only instead of 2 parties we have thousands yet when you boil it all down and take away all of the man made ritual our beliefs are remarkably similar…yet we still accuse one another of blasphemy and heresy. Most Christians begin with nothing but good intentions until they become a part of the establishment and the establishment changes them. We allow the establishment and all that entails to usurp God!

              It may seem to some that I am bad mouthing Christians but I am not. I would not give up my faith and my deep seated belief that we will get it all together eventually for anything, we’re just off course, way off course in some instances. I would be interested in hearing from some other Christians as to their take on the “State of the Church” as I know all to well I will hear from just about everyone who does not profess a faith in Christ.
              • What you don't get, Michael, is that many of us out here don't need to be "shown Jesus" in order to be good, decent, productive, charitable, generous, forgiving, compassionate people.

                These things are part of ordinary human nature and they can be understood through a variety of model myths, including the ministry of Christ, the teachings of Buddha, the Greek myths and the works of Shakespeare.

                I don't need a bronze age carpenter to tell me what to do. I'll listen...i have as a matter of fact. He said some good things and some bad things and I take what I can use and discard the rest as any thinking person does.

                The idea of clarifying our interpretation to figure out how everything Jesus said is perfect and good and right is a fool's errand. Our morality has changed significantly since the bronze age. It's changed significantly since the 19th century.

                The Bible makes it clear in several places that slavery, for example, is an expected and acceptable social construct. To us, it's monstrous. To them, it was ordinary.

                Now, I can look at that and say, "well, sure, we can expect moralists and ethicists of the time to make some accommodation to this practice...perhaps others will condemn it...because that was their culture." But we've decided that it's flat out of bounds, so I'm okay just glossing past such recommendations and focusing on the things that still apply, like the Golden Rule.

                Everyone does this, including Christians. You have an innate sense of right and wrong that's a product of both instinct and culture. Our culture is highly influenced by Christianity, so it's not surprising that many of our ideas of right and wrong will come from there. In the East, it's Buddhism.

                You then use this innate sense of right and wrong to cherry pick which parts of the bible are the "true" ministry and which parts are metaphors or tests of faith or mistranslations or misinterpretations. The fact remains that the same book that's used today to implore people to global hunger relief and 150 years ago to condemn slavery was also used for hundreds of years to justify slavery and to recommend the Inquisition.