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Does anyone really believe in God? One can believe in the sun, as you can feel its heat, watch it rise every morning, bath in its glow. One can believe in rocks, flowers, trees, and even death, but can one really believe in God? Can someone really believe in an entity, unseen, unheard, unknown- a thing, as far as we can know, entirely the product of our imaginations, even if such a thing might exist? Can you really believe in something you cannot really describe, a being for whom many nebulous, unclear, and basically ridiculous descriptions have been offered, none of which really agree?
I propose that no one actually believes in God. It is not possible to really be that stupid. What those who profess belief really have is a mad, desparate, forlorn hope that something like God exists. They cling foolishly to this mad hope because they fear death and they want the suffering and pain of life to somehow add up to something, to mean something. The fact that they do not really believe in God, explains their need to huddle together, chant, sing, and perform ritualistic actions to bolster their mad hope. It explains their need to convince others that their view of God is the right one.
What a horrendous disease this thing called religious faith is, requiring that many aspects of reality be ignored, as the mad hope teeters on its slender thread of insanity. For the faithful all hope of finding any truth has ended, because they imagine they know it, all the while hiding from themselves the fact that they do not believe, cannot believe in an idea so contrary to all that they know and might have observed about life.
I propose that no one actually believes in God. It is not possible to really be that stupid. What those who profess belief really have is a mad, desparate, forlorn hope that something like God exists. They cling foolishly to this mad hope because they fear death and they want the suffering and pain of life to somehow add up to something, to mean something. The fact that they do not really believe in God, explains their need to huddle together, chant, sing, and perform ritualistic actions to bolster their mad hope. It explains their need to convince others that their view of God is the right one.
What a horrendous disease this thing called religious faith is, requiring that many aspects of reality be ignored, as the mad hope teeters on its slender thread of insanity. For the faithful all hope of finding any truth has ended, because they imagine they know it, all the while hiding from themselves the fact that they do not believe, cannot believe in an idea so contrary to all that they know and might have observed about life.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 8:15 AMIn other words. Life's a bitch, then you die. Yep.
Well, except the sex part.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 8:38 AMI think part of the problem is with the definition of the word 'God'.
People say that they believe in this thing called 'God', but the definition is always changing.
Sometimes God is 'the big man who lives in the sky, sometimes 'God' is the concept of some kind of 'prime mover' that started the Universe, and sometimes God is 'that still, small voice in your head that helps you to make moral choices.'
So when someone tells you they beleive in God, what they are really saying is:
"there is this entity which is all loving and all powerful, yet chooses not to interfere with the course of misfortune and evil. This entity cannot be seen or heard or felt or sensed, and it cannot be defined in any way. There is no proof that this entity exists, and it cannot be described. Yet I beleive in it."
I can tell you whether or not I beleive in Leprechauns or Dinosaurs, for example. Both of these things can be described. They both have qualitative features (small green man with Irish accent = Leprechaun or midget. Million year old skelenton of a lizard as big as a house = Dinosaur, or maybe dragon.)
This entity called God is beyond description. Whenever a description for God is proven to be fallicious, the descriptive qualities of God change and become more mysterious and mystical (There can't be a man living in the sky? Oh, then god is like an invisible cloud of self-creating matter that exists at the center of the Universe.) It's a metaphysical goose chase, since nobody can explore each and every corner of the Universe to come back and conclude that God is nowhere to be found (God might have also switched hiding places. Ollie Ollie Oxen Free!) -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 11:35 AM
God is... there's nothing to believe in
one way we can know god is through Love... you FEEL it
this is different than desire
that doesn't mean that that's all god is or that god is all about good, but its a start.
it's how we can connect to this intuitive understanding (Pisces) by acceptance ...
the problems we have are are wrong knowing
it's how you use your mind, that's why skepticism and discrimination (Virgo) is good on materials but not on people
it doesn't work ...you get what you are looking for...like Quantum physics
Quantum theory is about the nature of matter www.thebigview.com/spacetim...eory.html
you have to experience Synchronicity ...Love
go ahead it's ok ...tell me you love me. ...tell someone out there that you love them
do it right now if you like
i love you James ... i love you Erik... it's an action of (good) ... it's givin... it's compassion...
it's lending a helping hand it's doing something good (goding)
then that puts you into a certain mind set ...higher vibrational energy field you begin to intuit
those that don't believe want something ...Facts, proof, they sit back and wait...or looking in all the wrong places
it starts with you
but you have to be proactive ...
God shines
The Sun opens up everything in nature and in me God and love can mean exactly the same.
When we open our hearts to our fellow human beings, we start giving and receiving love.
To have understanding we must continue to understand; to give love one must continue being loving.
I am the great giving ness centered in myself.
I am the awareness of generosity flowing forth to everyone and everything everywhere.
I am the abundance bursting forth unreservedly in my life and in all those with whom meet I am a process through whom enriches the universe.
I am joy.
I am the bubbling, laughing, smiling, charming spirit of all reality, coming forth through my awareness
I am abundance.
I am perfect peace.
I am so unshakably confident of the presence of the God who is perfect love that I have no fear, no trembling, no uncertainty that could undermine my confidence.
I am perfectly at ease. I know that I have given my life to God for perfect divine guidance and for uncritical acceptance.
I allow the alchemy of love to work its wondrous way in my life.
I give up all striving on my own, now that I know that God and I are partners, I the junior, happily cooperating with my Senior Partner.
I am endless enthusiasm.
I enthusiastically accept God's magnificent gift of fresh ideas every moment. I know that the whole universe is present to me and providing all that I ever could need or want, in the context of God's guidance. I am eager to see what loving gift God will give me this moment and every one after it.
I am thankfulness unimaginable.
I am so grateful for God that I could shout, and in my own quiet boisterous, outrageous way I do! I let my life shout my appreciation of God. I don't need to always talk about it, and I'm wise enough not to all the time, except when people in words or their other ways make it clear that they'd like to get more consciously into the divine act. Then I share with them what I can, but mostly I invite them to turn within and discover the glory that they have been hiding and maybe denying for decades. As they grow, we grow together in the company of the smiling ones (Shines) who blossom forth in common joy, yet unique in each expression of it.
I am free choice.
I realize that the essence of my life is freedom of choice. I am not poured into anyone's mold. I am not determined by the past. I am free to choose from the alternatives provided by the pattern of the past and by the perfect possibilities, the enlightened ideas, that God offers to me.
I am perfect paradox.
I am the silence that hollers. I am the stillness that dances. I am the beginning that is the end. I am the newness that is ancient. I am the here that is everywhere. I am eloquence without words. I am human that is divine. I am the divine that is garbage. I am the trees that walk. I am the impossible possibilities. I am something so great that it is nothing. I am so fully that I scarcely care whether I am at all. I know without knowing. I weep with neither sadness not apparent joy. I am I AM, yet ever am i.
I am born anew.
Not born again, for I have never been before. Yet I contain the ages. All wisdom is mine. But I know nothing other than the freshness of original birth. I have all that I could ever want, even when I forget it. Then I am new again in another first birth.
I am me.
I note my immediate surroundings, and they are not-me. I become aware of my body, and I allow it to relax. I become aware of my thoughts, and I allow them to slow, and then cease. I become still, and centered, waiting in the silence. I begin to expand. I become aware that I am one with the entire space I occupy.
I expand still further, until I include the town, the state, the continent. I feel the oceans beating on my shores, the mountains rising in my midst, the sky overhead. I continue to expand, until I include the planet, light on one side, dark on the other. I am the solar system, the galaxy, the universe. I am one.
The Love that made me, is me, as me. Somehow everything is as it should be. Disasters, wars, cruelty, waste, disappointment, loss, are all part of the same Whole as beauty, love, peace. Chaos resolves into higher order. The divine plan continues steadily, resolutely, dependably. The darkness drops away, and all that remains is light and love. All is well.
Dog Star -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 11:40 AM>>"there's nothing to believe in"<<
Nice to hear you agree with us Chaz
>>"I am perfect paradox."<<
Yes, perfectly boring.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 11:36 AM>>"So when someone tells you they beleive in God, what they are really saying is:
"there is this entity which is all loving and all powerful, yet chooses not to interfere with the course of misfortune and evil. This entity cannot be seen or heard or felt or sensed, and it cannot be defined in any way. There is no proof that this entity exists, and it cannot be described. Yet I beleive in it."
Yes, James, very well put, but I would add that they don't really believe it; they just want to believe it, or as Daniel Dennett says ( a second-hand quote via Mark): they believe in the belief in God; they do not actually believe in God. The reason, at least partly, as you described it, is because the concept is so nebulous and undefined that there is nothing there for real belief to grab with its claws. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 11:39 AM
it's funny you all know about Evolution but what about Involution? -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 12:10 PM
The materialist world view completely misses all the other worlds that exist, and only knows a dead mechanical world. William Blake called it "Single vision & Newton's sleep". Single vision has crippled our life, turning it into a bleak vale of tears.We need to open the third eye and have multiple vision, then we will know the glories of creation.
The divine soul "falls" to earth and incarnates in human beings. PEOPLE THIS LIF ON EARTH is HELL .This is Lucifer, the light bringer, coming to earth.The divine soul becomes trapped in the animal body (the trute meaning of Halloween ), and it is very easy for it to be overwhelmed by the animal nature. When then happens it becomes brutish and beastial or "satanic".
God is absolute, beyond good and evil."Good" and "evil" are terms that apply to the human plane of existence. This view does not advocate moral relativism or an "anything goes" attitude. Killing, stealing, lying and so on are wrong and not to be advocated.
but
Holding a view of the existence of absolute evil leads to the persecutions and intolerance that are all too prevalent in Christian and our religious history.
The divine soul needs the animal nature WE NEED EVIL. in order to progress.... it needs an opponent to wrestle with so that it can develop its powers. William Blake wrote: "Without Contraries is no progression" (Marriage of Heaven and Hell). Religion (and you people) do not understand this dynamic process, and thereby without it it makes it virtually impossible for the divine soul to achieve its evolutionary task.
Evil is good tortured by it's own hunger...it's Scorpio
walking through the transformative flames of the Phoenix then into the dove -
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Unsu...
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, November 7, 2006 - 10:57 PMI read the intro and all posts through this one and decided it was time for me to respond........
Does anyone believe in God?
.........for me it is not one God or Goddess. There are many... and with numerous aspects of each....
To say that one believes in either a God/Goddess with a fear of death...for me and those that I have experienced, that is a truly laughable statement. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO FEAR OF DEATH. I never will. It is a true part of life, inevitable. You cannot fear the inevitable, only accept it and make the most and be honest about it when it comes to life experience. The reality of things is to believe and know a God/Goddess and understand and life by their aspects/representation.
Chaz...the only thing I will argue with you is that this is Hell. I do not believe in Hell. I believe this to not only be life, but an experiment in what the God's call humanity. "The divine soul becomes trapped in the animal body " I look at this as an aspect, but not a definition.
And Chaz.....""Good" and "evil" are terms that apply to the human plane of existence." these do exist in the astral plane.
"The divine soul needs the animal nature WE NEED EVIL. in order to progress.... it needs an opponent to wrestle with so that it can develop its powers."
This is a natural balance always here, we have no need to create it.
"Evil is good tortured by it's own hunger...it's Scorpio"
..................evil is undefined.
Amethyst
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 3:25 PM"This entity cannot be seen or heard or felt or sensed"
You assume too much. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 3:52 PMI propose that no one actually believes in God. It is not possible to really be that stupid.
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i really er... know that god exists. and its not based on stupidity. tho, i can see how people who think god exists have given it such a bad rap, its not fair to say that of everybody.
Of course christianity is a crock, i think that goes without saying. But God isn't responsible for that crap.
Like the heartbeat, which you never hear, because your brain filters out the distraction, god is right there, not where most people would know where to look, a tiny but persistant presence, with us always, a soft whisper, a distant murmur, a cosmic sigh.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 9:06 PM>>"Like the heartbeat, which you never hear, because your brain filters out the distraction, god is right there, not where most people would know where to look, a tiny but persistant presence, with us always, a soft whisper, a distant murmur, a cosmic sigh."<<
Let us assume for a moment that this experience you describe is authentic. Frankly, I have no doubt that it is. However, your interpretation of the experience as "god" hardly seems apt or appropriate. You do not actually know what you are experiencing and your tying this experience to "god" which is a word usually used to describe an imagined omnipotent creator of the universe cannot really be justified.
The fact of the matter is that all experiences are meaningless, exactly like this one until we go through a learning process to make sense of them (as we all do as infants and children). Without feedback from the environment, we cannot understand and label anything we might sense or feel. What environmental feedback might allow you to label the particular experience you describe as “god”; the imagined omnipotent creator of the universe; is there anything in the experience indicative of omnipotence or creation. It is basically absurd to choose to label any internal experience in this way. First of all omnipotence is not even theoretically possible and secondly creation implies making something out of nothing which is also impossible.
Perhaps the experience has something to do with unseen connections between all humans or even all life forms. I doubt it, but at least this idea plausible. Unseen connections do not equate to god and should not be described using this word. Additionally, unseen connections, if they exist, would not appear to offer us anything useful, powerful, or of much value- we do not appear to be able to tap into them to communicate, or know anything reliably. Even if we could- it still could not accurately be described as “god”. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 3:05 PMbefore i go on, a whole bunch of chazzes posts were again half on. For instance Aum'nn
is simply the full roll call of the phonetic potentiate in terms of what the mouth can do, and represents the cosmic creation sound, otherwise translated as "Aum" or "OMM"
and then "nnn"
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Let us assume for a moment that this experience you describe is authentic. Frankly, I have no doubt that it is. However, your interpretation of the experience as "god" hardly seems apt or appropriate.
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you are just playing semantic games. You have no basis from which to call my experience
or my interpretations of my experience apt or appropriate. You re limited to your own subjective experience as i am to mine, so this whole sentence is just hot air.
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You do not actually know what you are experiencing and your tying this experience to "god" which is a word usually used to describe an imagined omnipotent creator of the universe cannot really be justified.
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You can't say that i know or don't know what i am experiencing. You can project that and assume it is so, but you can't claim reason or logic in doing that.
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The fact of the matter is that all experiences are meaningless, exactly like this one until we go through a learning process to make sense of them (as we all do as infants and children). Without feedback from the environment, we cannot understand and label anything we might sense or feel.
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Thats the first thing you say that has even as much as a potential truth value to it.
I disagree with your statement, but i understand conditional behavioral psychology. I also know that even psychologists don't take it THAT seriously.
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What environmental feedback might allow you to label the particular experience you describe as “god”; the imagined omnipotent creator of the universe;
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oops. You seem to have mistaken me for a christian.
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is there anything in the experience indicative of omnipotence or creation. It is basically absurd to choose to label any internal experience in this way. First of all omnipotence is not even theoretically possible
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actually, my version of god is a version which includes limitation, but theres no logical reason to say that omnipotence is impossible, and in logic class, they will tell you that you can't prove or disprove such possibilities.
So i don't know whos theory you are using, but, its just your theories that you are using, and has no basis in pure logic.
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and secondly creation implies making something out of nothing which is also impossible.
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take it up with the authors of big bang theory, i'm sure they will be plenty annoyed.
Actually, the story goes like this; a singularity was split in half, and polarized. Half of that polarity became matter, and half became antimatter. The two then mutually ahnilated, but antimatter/matter reactions end up favoring a matter outcome, so eventually, the universe cooled down into a state that was dominated by matter. Its called a phase vaccum fluctuation, and, its a well understood physics event that has been demonstrated in the lab.
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Perhaps the experience has something to do with unseen connections between all humans or even all life forms. I doubt it, but at least this idea plausible. Unseen connections do not equate to god and should not be described using this word.
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your entire argument is simply a lengthy straw man argument. Its certainly not my argument, and, since you never bothered to ask me what my argument is, all you are doing is projecting. Thats not logical nor rational of you, maybe you should back track.
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Additionally, unseen connections, if they exist, would not appear to offer us anything useful, powerful, or of much value-
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i'd underline "do not appear." if you assume something doesn't exist, then you won't use it.
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we do not appear to be able to tap into them to communicate,
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maybe you should look up quantum entanglement and cryptography and get back to me on that one. Here, let me help.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quan...yptography
search.yahoo.com/search
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or know anything reliably.
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speak for yourself.
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Even if we could- it still could not accurately be described as “god”.
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according to you.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 3:43 PM
Uh...prometheus, you talking to me? hey! you talking to me? (like Bobby Deniro)
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 3:44 PM
we can go toe to toe no maybe... concret e v e n! -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 3:47 PMwow, chaz, i been sending messages to this board for a few days now, and, you finally slowed down enough to actually notice. Hurrah.
yes chaz, i'm talking to you. Why don'tyou start back at the first post where i was talking to you, and, move foreward in chronological order?
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 4:06 PM
ok ok i'm about to go ape shit on your ass ...
"And if you want beef, then bring the ruckus
Wu-Tang Clan ain't nuttin ta f*ck with
Straight from the motherfucking slums i busted
Wu-Tang Clan ain't nuttin ta f*ck with"
tiger syle... -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 4:17 PMokay, you do great shadow boxing masturbation ego rub.
so? -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 4:24 PMinteresting how the "crossroads of religion" tribe has become a place to berate others for their beliefs or lack of them.
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hmm. My observation is that this is sort of how it goes. Now, if i thought that i could actually get some lucidity around here, i'd start a thread or five on deconstructing and then reconstructing a few paradigms into a gestalt whole. I personally like a liberal mix of Esoteric Christianity, Esoteric Judaism, Budhism, Taoism, Shamanism, Paganism, Shinto,
Hindu, Wicce, Wicca, Huna, Modern Psychology, Physics, Quantum Mechanics, and pure eclectic epiphany storm. But i doubt that would fly here, so all thats left is to grunt with the orks and trolls. I could be wrong, but, You'd have to demonstrate a thread with some real
collaborative and cooperative synergy in it to proove it one way or the other.
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perhaps this community is demonstrating a parallell process with world confilict, just wearing different lables. how much more interesting it would be if people cared about and were interested in what others have to say,
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Well, that would be nice, but its propaganda war; nobody cares what the other guy has to say over the top or underneath the undertoe of how to spin it to then argue with it.
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were curious about how they came to their conclusions, and could do that with respect and compassion.
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Pack psychology, Egoism. Narcissism. Paradigmal Dharma. Clinging to dogma. Human nature. Herd Psychology.
Welcome to reality as it is, rather than as we might have it be.
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it is the conflict between personalities, regardless of the possition they are proclaiming that is "really boring" in all these threads. and the few thoughtful voices are quickly drown out by the addicted arguers.
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yes, but i learned the hard way lately that tribe is a trolls paradise. Love it or leave it, you aren't going to have a deep conversation here unless you have an uncommonly lucid moderator.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 10:08 PM>>"Even if we could- it still could not accurately be described as “god”.
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according to you. <<"
...according to the dictionary, of course if you don't want to speak standard English and you want to redefine words, this is perfectly acceptable, but usually an explanation of how you are defining the word before you start using it in an unexpected way would be required, if you want anyone to understand what you are talking about.
Of course you never did this, and probably can't because the truth off the matter is you may have had an experience that you did not understand and you simply chose to call it god, as if this tells us what it is, or even means anything. As I already said, you have no way to identify what you might have experienced and whatever it might have been it is basically unknown and meaningless. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 3:16 PM>>"Even if we could- it still could not accurately be described as “god”.
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according to you. <<"
...according to the dictionary,
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No, not even according to the dictionary.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 3:19 PMOf course you never did this,
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No, i never reasoned via your straw man argument.
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and probably can't because the truth off the matter is you may have had an experience that you did not understand and you simply chose to call it god,
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No, i understood fine, you ar ethe one who is so assumptive that you think you can tell me what my experiences were, what my argument is, and, worse, whether or not i am competent to make sense of what happens to me.
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as if this tells us what it is, or even means anything. As I already said, you have no way to identify what you might have experienced and whatever it might have been it is basically unknown and meaningless.
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i have plenty of ways to identify it, all you have is a really lame straw man argument, and this veiled batch of ad hominems. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 3:26 PMAs I said, he assumes too much.
Once someone claims that they can know my internal states better than I do, their intellectual credibility is gone (at least for that argument), and the argument's over. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 3:29 PMOnce someone claims that they can know my internal states better than I do, their intellectual credibility is gone (at least for that argument), and the argument's over.
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yep, pretty much it.
No point arguing with somebody who is obviously crazy, ignorant, and projecting. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 3:37 PM"No point arguing with somebody who is obviously crazy, ignorant, and projecting."
Agreed. I do, on occasion, get sucked into arguments with crazy people, but I make an effort to avoid it whenever possible, and to extract myself as quickly as possible when it happens.
Few things are more pointless than arguing with a nutter. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 3:41 PMAgreed. I do, on occasion, get sucked into arguments with crazy people, but I make an effort to avoid it whenever possible, and to extract myself as quickly as possible when it happens.
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actually, i know better for long time, but i get sucked in pretty easy also. since tribe has no
admins with as much as a consience, theres no appeal process, and theres no accountability in any of it, so theres no point in continuing on, because the nutter has no rules they are forced to abide by, least of all reason or decency.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 4:03 PM"since tribe has no admins with as much as a consience"
Oh, come now. Surely you don't think that it's the moderator's job to evaluate and censor the crazies, do you? Let 'em blather. It makes 'em feel better. -
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Unsu...
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, November 7, 2006 - 11:12 PM"Oh, come now. Surely you don't think that it's the moderator's job to evaluate and censor the crazies, do you? Let 'em blather. It makes 'em feel better."
As I am a moderator of 4 tribes, I would have to say that you either created it or accepted responsibility for it, and HELL YES, I do pick the weeds in all my gardens.
Amethyst -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, November 7, 2006 - 11:37 PM"As I am a moderator of 4 tribes, I would have to say that you either created it or accepted responsibility for it, and HELL YES, I do pick the weeds in all my gardens."
It could be considered inappropriate and even unethical for the moderator of a tribe such as this particular one to decide whose opinions are and are not worthy to remain on the board.
Rza does a fine job of not preening this tribe to suit his personal tastes. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, November 8, 2006 - 6:17 AMAnd to be fair, he has kicked people out before when they got totally out of hand.
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Unsu...
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, November 9, 2006 - 9:55 PMIt could be considered inappropriate and even unethical for the moderator of a tribe such as this particular one to decide whose opinions are and are not worthy to remain on the board.
The weeds I refer to are flamers, as I DO FULLY understand that all are entitled to their own opinion. Sometimes what one might consider as weeds I look at as an addition of landscape. Enrika, I made a statement but since you do not know me or my style you assumed too much. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, November 10, 2006 - 11:42 AM"Enrika, I made a statement but since you do not know me or my style you assumed too much."
It could also be argued that I assumed too much (if I did, which is, in itself, arguable) because your statement was poorly-worded and incomplete.
But arguing about all of this would just be boring.
Arguing about sex is much more fun.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 8:37 PM>>"Once someone claims that they can know my internal states better than I do"<<
I don't claim to know anything about your internal state: my only claim is that whatever it is is irrelevant. You cannot say anything about a postulated entity that is not you and is outside of you by looking inside yourself. It is kinda like trying to describe the moon while looking down a rabbit hole.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, October 27, 2006 - 9:55 AM"I don't claim to know anything about your internal state"
Yes, you do. For example:
"the truth off the matter is you may have had an experience that you did not understand and you simply chose to call it god"
Presumption. Arrogance.
Prometheus's response was apt:
"No, i understood fine, you ar ethe one who is so assumptive that you think you can tell me what my experiences were"
"It is kinda like trying to describe the moon while looking down a rabbit hole."
Your analogy is invalid. A better analogy, to use your own form of reasoning, would be like trying to describe a sauna while sitting in a sauna. It is still an imperfect analogy (as most are), but at least it's in the ballpark of applicability (as opposed to your "rabbit hole" analogy, which is just silly, and poorly constructed).
"a postulated entity that is not you and is outside of you"
"This entity cannot be seen or heard or felt or sensed"
Once again, you assume too much. Not only do you assume that you know the internal states of others better than they do, but you make unwarranted assumptions about the nature of "God."
Your entire argument, everything you've been trying to build up since you started this thread, is based on a stack of unwarranted assumptions. Your argument is invalid. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, October 27, 2006 - 12:16 PM>>"Your entire argument, everything you've been trying to build up since you started this thread, is based on a stack of unwarranted assumptions."<<
As far as I know we are both humans. If you cut me open you would find a heart. If someone cut you open, I assume you would also have a heart, or is this an unwarranted assumption? All the assumptions that I have made, are exactly of this kind and I believe they are all warranted.
Merriam-Webster online defines God
"as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe"
Based on this definition it would appear that saying that trying to find God in your navel (inside yourself) "is kinda like trying to describe the moon while looking down a rabbit hole." or should we all go looking at your navel to find God, is that where he resides? No wonder I have had such a hard time finding him. Can I come over next week and take a look? To be sure of your observation, you really need to have it validated by others, otherwise it can be very easy to fool yourself, or haven't you heard that? If you don't want me to do it, ask your dog, if he sees God there, we wil all believe it.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, October 27, 2006 - 12:30 PM"As far as I know we are both humans."
Different humans have different perceptive abilities. You cannot say that something cannot be perceived because you cannot or have not perceived it. I mean, of course you *can* say it. You've been saying it for days. But that does not make it true.
"Merriam-Webster online defines God as"
Ah. I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that Merriam-Webster is considered the ultimate theological authority.
I apologize. All of your assumptions are quite clearly correct and accurate, and your understanding of human beings and the nature of the Universe is without parallel. Please, carry on.
Have a nice day. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, October 27, 2006 - 12:50 PM>>"Different humans have different perceptive abilities"<<
It is not about perceptive abilities. It is about interpreting what we percieve. Let us imagine for an instant that I have Superman's X-ray vision and can see into the center of the Earth. How would I be able to interpret what I see there? It would not relate to anything that I see on the surface of the Earth or to any of my every day experiences. With no feedback from the source, no theoretical models to explain the data, no validation from other observers that the data I am recieving via my X-ray vision is not the product of my imagination alone, it would be impossible for me to make any sense of the data recieved. I could not tell you anything meaningful about the what I might see there. Now earth scientists do actually send sound waves into the earth and try to build models of what might be there, but this is a process that takes into account many studies of how sound move through different materials, how waves behave, reflect, and interact, and a lot of other things. Without all this, the data they recieve would also be meaningless and they could not interpret it.
So what I am saying is this. First, it seems unlikely you can percieve things that I cannot. Second, even if you can percieve something that I cannot, just like with my X-ray vision, there would be no way for you to make sense of this data. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, October 27, 2006 - 4:34 PM"First, it seems unlikely you can percieve things that I cannot."
Irrelevant. You finding it unlikely does not make it not so.
"Second, even if you can percieve something that I cannot, just like with my X-ray vision, there would be no way for you to make sense of this data."
Okay, here's the deal: I had this experience a little less than two years ago. I have no idea how or why. I cannot describe it in any satisfactory way. All of my attempts at description were frustrating and pathetic. Language, even when used with the utmost skill (which I most certainly do not possess), can barely even skim the surface of this experience. It was truly ineffable.
The nature of the experience, however, was absolutely unmistakable.
It was also *my* experience, and mine alone. I can't prove it to you any more than I can prove the existence of God. But I damn well knew what it was.
I don't expect you to believe me or to take my word for it. I certainly wouldn't if it hadn't happened to me.
But to say, "It's not possible" is just plain ignorant.
As Loki said once several months ago, I expect you'd have a quick shuttin'-the-fuck-up moment if you "saw God."
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, October 27, 2006 - 1:00 PM>>"Ah. I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that Merriam-Webster is considered the ultimate theological authority. "<<
God is a word. If you use a word in a non-standard way, without explaining how you are using it, then no one can possibly know what you are talking about, or discuss it with you. If you are using the word God, for some concept known only to you, of course no one can comment on your idea.
Generally speaking it works better to stick to standard definitions of words if you want to communicate. It does not have much to do with theology. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, October 27, 2006 - 3:46 PMPeople have been trying to define the nature of "God" for thousands of years. To now say that you can have a meaningful conversation about God based on an 18-word definition from Merriam-Webster is ridiculous to the point of being comical. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, October 27, 2006 - 3:59 PM>>"People have been trying to define the nature of "God" for thousands of years"<<
I can understand how it might take thousands of years to define something that does not exist. Actually it seems like it might take millions or even billions of years, no no; obviously it would take an infinite number of years since something that does not exist cannot be defined.
Now of course, if you want to imagine something and talk about it with people, you have to give it some attributes and maybe represent the concept with a word. Seems a bunch of people have done that and come up with the word God to identify the thing they imgaine. Their imaginary entity is commonly described as Merriam-Webster defines it.
Perhaps if you want to devise another imaginary entity other than this one, you should come up with a new name, so as not to confuse people. I suggest this one; Akirne. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, October 27, 2006 - 4:13 PMI can understand how it might take thousands of years to define something that does not exist. Actually it seems like it might take millions or even billions of years, no no; obviously it would take an infinite number of years since something that does not exist cannot be defined.
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logic says that you can't use logic to determine whether or not god exists; thus, your belief that god does not exists is simply equal and co-oposite to some other belief that god does.
Its based on assumptions guided by emotional attachments.
All you have is an assumption, projections, evasions, straw men, and bad logic. You don't have a valid argument, and you aren't even aware of the difference between your garbage and reason.
To be truthful, i'm only bothering to keep on cuz enrika is still working on it, but i think you are as hopeless as any fundie christian. you won't listen, you have no real ethics, you have no moral center, and it doesn't therefore bother you to twist stuff around in circles, and to project, and etc. Talking to you is fruitless and impossible, because you aren't talking to me,
your imagining a fake me, a straw man me, and poking it with needles. Projectionist voodoo argument is unbecoming for somebody who claims the side of science.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sat, October 28, 2006 - 10:47 PM>>"All you have is an assumption, projections, evasions, straw men, and bad logic. You don't have a valid argument, and you aren't even aware of the difference between your garbage and reason."<<
Thanks for the kind words Prometheus. Like Enrika, you have not presented anything which disputes my claim that no one can *really* believe in God. Most of what you have said actually supports my claim which probably explains why you feel the need to resort to insults, although I am not sure why the fact that no one *really* believes in God threatens you so much, that you feel it necessary to attack someone making such a claim.
>>"you have no real ethics, you have no moral center"<<
This would appear to be a conclusion reached with no basis. All I have done is question how valid your claim to "know" God exists is. The only evidence you presented for this claim appeared to be based on some personal experience. The only evidence you presented for this appeared to be a description of this personal experience, so this was the only part of your argument I addressed. If this experience were real it would be the strongest part of your argument, not the weakest, which is exactly why I felt it should be addressed. The rest of your diatribes were so weak, they really did not need to be addressed to further my claim. It turns out that you were not speaking of personal experience, but according to you this was a "metaphor" which I can only take to mean, you were not describing personal experience, leaving your claim to "know" God exists completely without any support.
So tell us Prometheus, how do you "know" God exists. And if you "know" it are you certain that you *really* believe it. Can you actually describe and define the God you "know" to exist. I would say if you cannot describe and define it, then you cannot claim to *really* believe in this God, but only to beleive in something which is nebulous and undefined and therefore not fully believable.
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Unsu...
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, November 7, 2006 - 11:18 PMlogic says that you can't use logic to determine whether or not god exists; thus, your belief that god does not exists is simply equal and co-oposite to some other belief that god does.
Its based on assumptions guided by emotional attachments.
Exactly,
The only sense that one has that there is a God is an intuitive sense. You do not hear, smell,see,feel or taste him/her. It's a gut feeling. Intuition is purely emotional....... a gut feeling.
Amethyst -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, November 8, 2006 - 6:27 AMAm: Intuition is purely emotional....... a gut feeling.
A nice starting place, but one that then requires verification.
Otherwise one ends up with impasses like my intuition is that your intuition is actually just wishful thinking...a gut feeling doesn't necessarily convey any factual information. -
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Unsu...
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, November 9, 2006 - 10:26 PM
"A nice starting place, but one that then requires verification."
WHY??? -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, November 10, 2006 - 5:55 AMSw: A nice starting place, but one that then requires verification.
Am: WHY???
Because intuition, a gut feeling, a hunch, etc. lacks direct evidence to back it up. Its a nondeductive integration of information which can make leaps over areas where deduction finds itself blocked, but in doing so it also is lacking in the necessary evidence and proof of its assumptions and thus may be unduly influenced by feelings which have no actual bearing on the reality of the situation.
Also intuition, like any thing, can be fooled and sometimes fooled quite badly. Most gambling is playing on a weakness in how intuition works.
Good intuition is nice. There are even ways of developing it as a skill. But it is just one piece of the puzzle and like anything it is best when its strengths and weaknesses are understood.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, October 27, 2006 - 4:52 PMOkay, after one more thing (Oh, who the hell am I kidding? I'll probably get sucked back in anyway):
"I can understand how it might take thousands of years to define something that does not exist."
Language is woefully inadequate for the vast majority of the human experience.
Can you also understand how it might take thousands of years to attempt to describe in words that which is ineffable?
"It cannot be adequately described with words. Therefore it does not exist."
Another ridiculous argument. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sat, October 28, 2006 - 10:20 PM>>'Language is woefully inadequate for the vast majority of the human experience."<<
You have not been listening very well Enrika. The claim I make is that no one really believes in God. You can pretend to believe. You can want to believe. You can believe in belief, but you cannot really believe. Everything you have said to this point actually supports my claim, rather than disputes it, including the statement above.
Let us briefly review your arguments. First you claim to have a special perception of God, but apparently do not believe you percieved what is commonly defined as God. So you do not believe in God, but in something else which for obscure reasons you want to call God. You admit you cannot adequately define or describe the "God" you claim to percieve, saying people have been working on this problem for thousands of years. Can you really believe in something you cannot really describe or define?
Let us return to my X-ray vision example. I peer into the center of the Earth and see things, but cannot adequately define or describe them. Let us say I make a guess at what I see, based on my surface experiences and say I see a beluga whale swimming down there. I cannot really believe there is a beluga whale down there because I know the data I am recieving is different in every respect from my experiences on Earth and there is no way I can adequately define or describe what I am seeing.
My argument is not this one: "It cannot be adequately described with words. Therefore it does not exist." But this one: It cannot be adequately described with words. Therefore you cannot really believe in it. Also, to claim that something exists, it is necessary to describe and define what that thing might be, otherwise you are not actually claiming that anything in particular exists. Your claim simply amounts to; there is something out there beyond my experience. No doubt there is. No doubt at all that the universe is filled with all kinds of things which are beyond our current experience and probably completely beyond our reach. Does it make sense to give these things a name like "God" which has a commonly understood definition and claim we know "God" exists, when you don't even know what it is? It makes little sense to me for anyone to do this, although I know that it is commonly done. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sat, October 28, 2006 - 10:36 PMYes, Rene, as I said before, your understanding of human beings, your ability to know, interpret, and understand their thoughts, perceptions, beliefs, and inner states better than they, themselves, and your knowledge of the nature of the Universe is beyond question. You are quite clearly a brilliance heretofore unmatched.
Have a nice day. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sat, October 28, 2006 - 10:56 PM>>"Yes, Rene, as I said before, your understanding of human beings, your ability to know, interpret, and understand their thoughts, perceptions, beliefs, and inner states better than they, themselves, and your knowledge of the nature of the Universe is beyond question. You are quite clearly a brilliance heretofore unmatched."<<
It is good to see that you have finally recognized this. You have a nice day too.
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Unsu...
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, November 7, 2006 - 11:21 PM""It cannot be adequately described with words. Therefore it does not exist."
Another ridiculous argument."
O.k., then, beyond a reasonable doubt describe him and still be wrong, as God to me is also a Goddess, and how does one who can only see one side accurately describe both?
Amethyst
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sun, December 3, 2006 - 5:35 PMMerriam-Webster online defines God
"as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe"
I havent read all the posts, am new, and stopped at this one, but I believe you are attempting to define the wrong word to recieve an proper answer to your question. Instead, you should be looking up the word belief.
From Miriamwebster.com:
Main Entry: be·lief
Function: noun
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
It seems as if your attempting to disprove God rather then the belief in him. All belief requires a blind leap of faith of some sort. After all, if there was no doubt about the validity of something, it would be a fact rather than a belief. So yes, people really DO believe in God, but simple belief doesnt confirm his existence. But isnt that the real test of faith? -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sun, December 3, 2006 - 8:22 PM>>"It seems as if your attempting to disprove God rather then the belief in him."<<
Since you did not read all the posts, this one sums up my position best:
"So my first thesis is this: No one can have certain belief in God.
Now I will present my second thesis, which follows from the first:
Atheists, agnostics, and theists all recognize that no one can have certain belief in God. The difference between the three is what they choose to do, given this fact.
Theists think that since no one can have certain belief in God, that a belief in whatever God makes them feel good about the universe is justified. They believe that a belief in God is a good and necessary thing, as it can bring group solidarity to have shared belief, lend an air of authority to shared values and provide comforting notions in times of crisis. The most accurate description of the theist position is that they believe in belief.
Agnostics think that since no one can have certain belief in God, that one should keep an open mind and not believe in God, but at the same not disbelieve it. They do not feel that it is really important one way or the other whether God exists or what one believes about it.
Atheists, of course, also feel that no one can have certain belief in God. Given that God is simply one of a multitude of concepts for which there is no valid evidence and about which we can have no certain belief, there appears to be no reason to give the idea any credence or consideration whatsoever. If some valid evidence for the reality of a God where presented, or if it could be shown that there were certain aspects of the universe that would be necessarily different with a God than without one, then the idea might merit further investigation."
Note I am talking about "certain belief" not belief as you describe.
Also, I make no attempt to disprove God, because this is entirely unnecessary- I make no attempt to disprove invisible pink unicorns, or the giant, yellow fish at the center of the Milky Way galaxy; without any evidence for these things, we can dismiss the ideas completely and give them no credence whatsoever. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, December 7, 2006 - 4:34 PMI believe your original question was "Does anyone really believe in God?" My response was to that question, which I think I answered well enough. Now, I would like to know your definition of "Certain Belief" before I go arguing that, but I'll just go on a whim that we define it the same. To have Certain belief in something is to know or "know" that something is true or real (not just applying to God). This means that you eliminate any of the doubt neccessary to hold belief in something, and now you feel you KNOW something is real. So really, certain belief isnt belief at all, but rather actually knowing something is real (perhaps having priveledged information of some sort that isnt common knowledge). So certain belief in knowing God exists, I agree with you in that no one has that (according to this definition), as all believers have questioned it at one time or another.
Or Certain belief could just mean that one has an unwavering faith in their beliefs. There are people that you can not bend even the slightest away from their beliefs, no matter what the circumstances. Whether it be ignorance, stupidity, or wisdom (the 3 main reasons for this in my mind), these people continue on no matter what the circumstances. So, certain belief in God is definitely attainable this way, according to this definition.
Your second thesis, very good, but these are what non-believers say to justify THEIR beliefs. I lived as an Agnostic/Theist combo (according to your definitions) for much longer than I was a believer, so I understand this way of thinking. And while I agree with some of there assessments and psychology, I dont agree with the whole way of thinking. Much like believers like to claim to the 'moral highground', non believers like to believe in the ignorance of believers, and cling to 'superior intelect'. So really, when talking about the other side, they each have their own agenda and arent really bipartisan. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, December 7, 2006 - 9:31 PM>>"So certain belief in knowing God exists, I agree with you in that no one has that (according to this definition), as all believers have questioned it at one time or another."<<
This is the definition I have been trying to work with. Thanks for helping to clarify this.
>>"Or Certain belief could just mean that one has an unwavering faith in their beliefs."<<
This is not how I was trying to use the term "certain belief".
>>"Your second thesis, very good, but these are what non-believers say to justify THEIR beliefs."<<
I fail to see how one can characterize non-belief as belief. It would be the same as saying that the statement: "I cannot hear your voice", is a claim to hearing something.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, December 7, 2006 - 10:14 PM>>"non believers like to believe in the ignorance of believers"<<
Some may do this, but this is the opposite of what I have been trying to convey here. I am saying that non-believers, agnositcs, and believers have essentially the same perceptions and knowledge and the difference lies in what they choose to do with these perceptions and knowledge. None of us have certain belief- let us now call it certain knowledge, but deal with this differently.
The believers take a leap of faith- believing in belief; that something must be believed, they accept the premise that reality can be modeled by our imaginations alone without any substantial input data.
Agnostics do not take the leap of faith, but choose to not deny certain claims. (My greatest argument with agnostics is that they will deny some claims, but not others, specifically the claims of God which are really more fantastic than other claims that they do deny)
Non-believers simply deny claims for which there is no basis. If there is a basis for a claim; real evidence from our senses, or irrefutable logic, then we do not deny the claim, but believe it conditionally, understanding that both our senses and our logic are prone to error, particularly in a data poor environment; and what we actually have are models of reality which are not reality itself, so that we can never claim certain knowledge about anything.
I am not trying to claim "moral high ground" or superior intellect" for non-believers, as you suggest, but only trying to point out how in my view, the choice of non-belief makes more sense given no certain knowledge, than belief, or agnosticism.
One could argue that having true faith in some concept like an imaginary God actually requires superior intellect. First to imagine the thing in the first place and then to hold onto this imaginary thing so strongly that it becomes real to you. A study of prehistory would support this idea, as religious ideas seem to be a hallmark of early modern man, whereas evidence of religion is lacking human precursors. My idea would be that these religious beliefs are simply high intellect run amok. We search for answers to any and all questions and if we cannot find good answers we make them up. This practice has great functionality- sometimes making up the answers can lead us to real answers. The real problem lies in improper labeling of the made up answers and the institutionalization of these answers in formal religions. When the made-up answers are fully understood as conjectures and treated as such there is no problem. When they are sold, pushed upon others, and presented as real answers they become roadblocks in the progress of knowledge and lose their functionality. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sun, December 10, 2006 - 4:46 PM>>"non believers like to believe in the ignorance of believers"<<
>>>"Some may do this, but this is the opposite of what I have been trying to convey here."<<<
You may not intentionaly be doing this, yet you compare belief in God to unicorns and other imaginary creatures, essentialy mocking those of us who have chosen to believe.
>>>"I fail to see how one can characterize non-belief as belief."<<<
Because thru non-belief in God, Non-believers essentially create a belief in is non-existence...that is what I was trying to convey in that statement. But for clarity, lets call it an opinion rather than a belief when talking about non-believers.
>>>"The believers take a leap of faith- believing in belief; that something must be believed, they accept the premise that reality can be modeled by our imaginations alone without any substantial input data."<<<
This is how non-believers would characterize us.
Believers wont even use the word 'imagination' when describing their beliefs, as this would suggest they were making up something. And, instead of simply saying we accept that something MUST be believed, we accept that something IS to be believed. You made many small comments like this (perhaps unknowingly) throughout your whole response, that suggests that believers dont really believe in God.
>>>"I am not trying to claim "moral high ground" or superior intellect" for non-believers, as you suggest, but only trying to point out how in my view, the choice of non-belief makes more sense given no certain knowledge, than belief, or agnosticism."<<<
I didnt say non-believers claim the moral highground, I said believers often hold onto that claim. And, as for the superior intellect, I have never met or known of a non-believer who didnt talk down on beliefs and/or believers when discussing the issue of religion or science (while I know believers who do this, the % I know is much lower than non believers). But in response to the sentence, if that is your opinion, I can not change that no matter how much we discuss this. My opinion would be (and again, I speak as someone who didnt believe for a long time) that the consequences of disbelief in God, are far greater than the rewards in disbelieving him.
Your conclusion is conditional. Yes, if someopne makes up a false god, tricks themselves into it being real, creating a following, tec. then they are a roadblock to knowledge and understanding. But that does not mean we all make up our own God(s)....I could discuss more, but I'll save it for later, i'm getting kinda lazy right now...
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sun, December 10, 2006 - 9:57 PM>>"You may not intentionaly be doing this, yet you compare belief in God to unicorns and other imaginary creatures, essentialy mocking those of us who have chosen to believe."<<
Even if there is a God, he is entirely imaginary to all human beings because, they cannot claim to have experienced God anywhere but inside their own brains. Things that we experience entirely inside our own brains are imaginary by definition. There may really be unicorns or there may really be a God, but both are still imaginary creatures. Now if we find the bones of a unicorn, or some credible tangible evidence for God, then they would not fit into the category of imaginary creatures.
>>'Believers wont even use the word 'imagination' when describing their beliefs, as this would suggest they were making up something."<<
Any idea we have at some point originates in our imagination. Copernicus had to imagine that the Earth revolves around the sun rather than the other way. There are a series of observations that support what Copernicus imagined, so we accept this as fact now, rather than only a product of our imaginations. The theory of God has never been confirmed by any kind of observations and so remains in the category of things that men have imagined.
>>"the consequences of disbelief in God, are far greater than the rewards in disbelieving him"<<
This is by far the silliest argument believers have for their belief. If there were a God, he would be responsible for giving us minds capable of properly evaluating data- believing in that which has tangible evidence, and dismissing fanciful ideas and theories with no basis. It is entirely absurd to imagine that any God would chose to punish anyone for properly using the mind he gave them. It would be like someone breaking someone's legs and then telling them that they would punish them for not be able to run fast. If there were an all-powerful, omni-present God who cared about whether people believed in him or not, it would be ridiculously simple to get people to believe in him. Since this has obviously not happened and in fact no two people seem to have the same conception of God, it is clear there is nothing there to lead anyone to believe in any God.
Additionally, it is totally ridiculous to imagine some all-powerful and omnipotent being has a need for people to believe in him and that this would be important in any way. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, December 12, 2006 - 5:05 PM>>"The theory of God has never been confirmed by any kind of observations and so remains in the category of things that men have imagined."<<
Believers didnt imagine God, because we accepted that God told us of his existence and his will through Prophets...or in some religions even incarnation of God's into the human realm. So, believers of any faith will not use the word "imagination" when describing their beliefs, and definitely dont like others labeling them as that either. So, in the future, use 'theory' or 'belief' or something that isnt prejudice towards a specific conclusion.
>>"This is by far the silliest argument believers have for their belief. If there were a God, he would be responsible for giving us minds capable of properly evaluating data- believing in that which has tangible evidence, and dismissing fanciful ideas and theories with no basis. It is entirely absurd to imagine that any God would chose to punish anyone for properly using the mind he gave them. It would be like someone breaking someone's legs and then telling them that they would punish them for not be able to run fast."<<
Silly or not, I believe my statement to be true. But not my main point. Our greatest gifts from God were free will and advanced thinking. But as for your opinion of God's punishment, why is it so obsurd? We talked earlier that believers take that leap of faith, and I mentioned also that it was a trial/test that must be completed. How will God test us properly if the test is impossible to fail? Failure, or denial of this test will not gain you God's favor, but his wrath.
>>"If there were an all-powerful, omni-present God who cared about whether people believed in him or not, it would be ridiculously simple to get people to believe in him."<<
Your 100% right, but once again, where is the test in that?
>>"Since this has obviously not happened and in fact no two people seem to have the same conception of God, it is clear there is nothing there to lead anyone to believe in any God."<<
Perhaps this is your conclusion, as things like Prophets, the Bible, Qur'an, etc. arent proof for you. But they are more than enough for others to accept these words as true, and to lead them to belief in God. And even though everyone has their own opinion on God's 'policies' (for lack of a better word), this does not change peoples conception of God. Example: A Sunni Muslim and a Shiite Muslim differ on a lot of things about what God deems permissible and such, but they do believe in the same God. And no matter how many individual opinions among people of the same faith/sect, they all believe in the same God...So it is safe to say that people share the conception of God himself, but often differ on other things. This is often people (whether thru interpretation, manipulation, etc) attempting to justify their actions as individuals, not neccessarily a different conception of God.
>>"Additionally, it is totally ridiculous to imagine some all-powerful and omnipotent being has a need for people to believe in him and that this would be important in any way. "<<
He doesnt have a need, it is supposed to be our priviledge and honor to believe in Him. It is also not important for Him that we believe, but important to us, so that we gain God's favor and will be allowed entrance into heaven. This is what we choose to believe, and to think we are doing God any favors, or that we are doing Him a service, is an incorrect belief in itself. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, December 12, 2006 - 7:18 PM>>"Believers didnt imagine God, because we accepted that God told us of his existence and his will through Prophets...or in some religions even incarnation of God's into the human realm."<<
So if believers did not imagine God, but simply accept what someone called a prophet imagined; it is still totally the product of someone's brain- by definition something imaginary. You are actually worse off here; accepting the products of someone else's imagination as real.
Someone claiming to be God incarnate is a lunatic- his imagination has completely subverted his rational mind. Once again you have simply accepted the product of someone's imagination as real.
>>"Failure, or denial of this test will not gain you God's favor, but his wrath"<<
The test in this case is; do you have have mindless belief or not? Why would any God favor fools who believe theories for which there is no basis? It makes no sense. If I were God, I would tend to favor people who properly use the rational minds given to them, rather than those who accept fanciful ideas as reality without any evidence.
>>"Our greatest gifts from God were free will and advanced thinking"<<
If we have free will, then your God is not omnipotent. It my estimation belief in God is not advanced thinking, but a primitive notion used by primitive people to explain things they do not understand. Since we have barely stepped out of the Stone age, it is not surprising that primitive thinking is still with us, but time will lead to more advanced thinking; it is a process that is inexorable.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, December 12, 2006 - 9:18 PM"But as for your opinion of God's punishment, why is it so obsurd? We talked earlier that believers take that leap of faith, and I mentioned also that it was a trial/test that must be completed. How will God test us properly if the test is impossible to fail? Failure, or denial of this test will not gain you God's favor, but his wrath."
How can you believe that a god that would provide no evidence of its existence would punish you for not believing in it? And if you did, why would you think it worthy of worship? Fear? What a crappy reason to worship something. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, December 12, 2006 - 9:37 PM"What a crappy reason to worship something."
Do you *love* it? How could you possibly truly love something that fucking cruel and perverse?
"If you don't believe in me and love me with all of your heart, despite the fact that I will give you absolutely no evidence that I exist *at all*, you will spend all eternity in misery in a lake of fire, as My punishment to you."
How could you *possibly* think that God is so hideous and petty and perverse? -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, December 12, 2006 - 10:26 PMThat's pretty much your number 1 standard god concept right there.
So why DO so many people believe it? -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, December 12, 2006 - 10:30 PMI don't know, Grim. Truly.
Nothing could possibly be so fucked up.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, December 13, 2006 - 6:31 AM>>"So why DO so many people believe it?"<<
This is not a hard question to answer. Religion provides some easy answers to a lot of hard questions and makes people feel better about their lives. Basically we all are challanged at some point by the mystery of life. We basically have two choices; accept some easy answers that are given to us or work hard on our own to formulate some answers, most likely never producing a satisfactory answer. Most people make the first choice which usually involves accepting the tenets of whatever religious faith is most prevalent in their families and culture. Poor souls like you and me demand that things make sense which the easy answers of religion fail to do, so we will go on searching for answers, probably until the day we die. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, December 13, 2006 - 4:25 PMThis answer does not describe anyone that I have personal knowledge of. [Most people make the first choice which usually involves accepting the tenets of whatever religious faith is most prevalent in their families and culture. ] Yes, Baha'i is real prevelant in the Pac NW in the 1940s! Running rampant! Furthermore, although I happen to be a third generation Baha'i on my mother's side of the family my father's side were Episcopalians and Lutherans. They insisted we be baptised just in case it turned out Baha'u'llah was the Anti-Christ we would have a fighting chance. So, its not even prevelant in my overall family. Three of my sibilings are not participants in any religion. An aunt from the Baha'i side of the family believes in faeries but not necessarily a real, actual God.
Education wise in the family: 90% of my generation have college degrees. 60% of my parent's generation in the family have one. 95% of my children's generation. Of my children's generation, so far, of those in their 20s - 100% actively belong to a religion.
Easy answers? You know nothing of the Baha'i Faith, or any religion for that matter, to say that it contains easy answers.
Your answer was a tired platitude, given dismissively to terminate real dialog and stroke one another's prejudice.
You know I'm not going to be back to discuss this because its just going to get ugly with you saying I am feeling threatenend and me saying that you have no eyes to see so just ignore this breif interlude and go back to your superiority fest. You poor souls are to be commended for putting up with us ignorant people looking for the "easy" way out of life. Someday, after you've done all of the hard work for us, we will turn to you and follow your example. Continue with the back patting. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, December 13, 2006 - 6:52 PM>>"You know nothing of the Baha'i Faith, or any religion for that matter, to say that it contains easy answers."<<
I do have a general idea of what the Baha'i Faith entails, although I don't know much about the details. I do know what at least one religion in detail, as I spent 12 years in Catholic schools with religion classes every day. Easy answers are those provided to you by someone else which are what these faiths provide. Statistically speaking people generally end up with the faith of their parents, families, or culture. You appear to be one of the exceptions and so am I. Exceptions don't prove that the rule is wrong. Most of the people I went to high school with are still Catholic.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, December 13, 2006 - 11:05 PMThe religious infection is primarily transferred - with a transmission rate of over 80% - from parents to children, largely irrespective of surrounding culture.
If you look at all the Abramahic versions of god they're all total wankers, hence the question why anyone would choose to worship them. That their existence is presented as fact to children is probably part of it, fear (of the god figure, of death, of human insignificance) might be another factor and then there's always the satisfaction of being part of a clique. There are easy answers based on authority as well, or, perhaps more correctly, 'lazy answers'.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, October 27, 2006 - 4:07 PMI don't claim to know anything about your internal state: my only claim is that whatever it is is irrelevant.
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your doing the logical fallacy of mixing terms, and, playing with straw men again.
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You cannot say anything about a postulated entity that is not you and is outside of you by looking inside yourself.
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your idea of seperation is a brain/mind delusion, and isn't my model of god; again, a straw man.
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It is kinda like trying to describe the moon while looking down a rabbit hole.
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no, its like sitting in a sauna and trying to tell you about it over the net. You claim that Hot water is impossible, because fire and water don't mix. Its a ludicrous argument, and has nothing whatsoever to do with a sauna.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 6:34 AM>>"You have no basis from which to call my experience
or my interpretations of my experience apt or appropriate"<<
Your story of experiencing god, reminds me of this one:
A little boy gets lost in the woods and ends up spending the night alone in the darkness. The next day he is found and he tells how he saw a giant flying dragon in the darkness. He had heard tales of dragons and imagined they inhabited the night. He had no clear picture of what a dragon might look like and the many descriptions he had heard of dragons were all different, so if he were looking for a dragon, he would not even know what he was looking for. His mother asked the boy to tell her more specifically what he had seen in the darkness, so she could determine what he might have really seen. Maybe he had seen the eyes of a cat, or two stars low on the horizon piercing through the trees. It seemed unlikely to her that he had seen a dragon, as no one she knew had ever seen one, and she understood that dragons were simply fables. She wanted to understand how the boy had come to interpret what he had seen as a dragon and was so sure it must be one. Upon further questioning, the mother found out that the boy had not actually seen or heard, or even felt, smelled, or touched anything that made the boy believe there was a dragon, he had simply felt the dragon’s presence and knew it must be a dragon.
Please tell us how your story of experiencing god is any different than the boy’s dragon story or any more believable. I feel certain the two stories are similar in every respect, but I am always willing to be convinced that I might be wrong -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 3:28 PM>>"You have no basis from which to call my experience
or my interpretations of my experience apt or appropriate"<<
Your story of experiencing god, reminds me of this one:
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Since i never told you a story, yet another straw man argument makes you look like a real con artist.
Your as evasive and as much of a bs artist as chaz is. I notice you couldn't go point for point
with my whole argument, and you picked the weakest parts of it to take out of context. Thats lame, illogical, and simply not real debate.
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Please tell us how your story of experiencing god is any different than the boy’s dragon story or any more believable.
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Why would i hop into your straw man argument? That seems like doing too many favors for you.
A psychologist might interpret the bosy meeting with the dragon as simply awakening internally to a conversation with his own reptilian brain.
I operate via lucid understanding of causality and logic, and not via "magickal" or even "metaphorical" thinking. You obviously can't even do that much.
Since i didn't tell you any stories, i can't tell you MORE about any of my alleged stories.
Since you haven't asked my real opinion, just projected straw men, you proove that you are unworthy for me to tell you anything so personal.
You are just as much an irrational dogmatist as chaz is, and your argument is based just as much on emotions and presumptions as his are.
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I feel certain the two stories are similar in every respect, but I am always willing to be convinced that I might be wrong
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if so, you would have taken the whole argument i made as a whole, and not parted out things to take out of context.
I thought i'd give you an answer to your question. You have proven that you aren't interested in an answer to your question, and that you are willing to use psychology tricks to frame anybody who gives you a real answer as delusional. Its been nice playing mind fuck games with you, but, at this point, i can only assume that you are also a liar; and have no intention of exhibinting real lucidity, humility, or, critical introspection.
enjoy your comfortable delusional atheism; and the bickering troll exchange;
ciao. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 9:05 PM>>"Since i didn't tell you any stories, i can't tell you MORE about any of my alleged stories."<<
You told this story which is what I have been refering to:
"Like the heartbeat, which you never hear, because your brain filters out the distraction, god is right there, not where most people would know where to look, a tiny but persistant presence, with us always, a soft whisper, a distant murmur, a cosmic sigh. "
Quite poetic, I liked it actually, but I will still contend it is exactly similiar in all respects to the boy's story of the dragon. No one has any reason to take this story any more seriously than the dragon story or imagine that the god you refer to is any different than the boy's dragon or any more real. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, October 27, 2006 - 4:03 PMYou told this story which is what I have been refering to:
"Like the heartbeat, which you never hear, because your brain filters out the distraction, god is right there, not where most people would know where to look, a tiny but persistant presence, with us always, a soft whisper, a distant murmur, a cosmic sigh. "
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thats not a story, its a metaphor,
(why am i bothering? oh hell, i got sucked in again...) -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, October 27, 2006 - 4:36 PM"oh hell, i got sucked in again..."
Yeah, I did too. I'm done. Y'all just go on circle-jerking without me.
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Unsu...
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, November 7, 2006 - 11:04 PM"oops. You seem to have mistaken me for a christian. "
I can definitely say that Prom is NOT a Christian.
Amethyst
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 1:05 PM<First of all omnipotence is not even theoretically possible and secondly creation implies making something out of nothing which is also impossible. >
That is, impossible to you. But your mind is finite. Anything is possible. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 11:00 PMSc: That is, impossible to you. But your mind is finite. Anything is possible.
Is anything possible? How about god actually being evil. How about a round square? How about god making something impossible?
Is the mind finite? How would you know and what do you mean by finite?
Making something out of nothing may be impossible for Rene, but it is not impossible for me, though few appreciate the skill.
What do you think of this?
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 9:37 PM>>"You assume too much"<<
Prove it! -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 11:55 PM"Prove it!"
You cannot prove this:
"This entity cannot be seen or heard or felt or sensed" -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 12:36 AMTo say that something cannot be sensed because you, personally, don't sense it is a ridiculous assumption. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 6:57 AM>>"To say that something cannot be sensed because you, personally, don't sense it is a ridiculous assumption."<<
Assuming we are all human beings it is a reasonable assumption. I did not notice any antenna sticking out of your head that I lack. As far as proof goes, the burden of proof lies with someone making a fantastic claim. If I claim to have imagined and feel certain there is a giant, yellow fish at the center of the Milky Way galaxy, would you dismiss my claim and ask for proof, or would you assume it is simply a product of my wild imagination.. Well I have some "proof"--> I have a nice picture of the fish. Show me your picture of God and I will give you credence until I demonstate the picture is a lie, just like your belief- a lie you want to believe, but cannot because, as we both know- you are too smart for that.
Additionally, the idea that you, I or anyone might sense God is absurd. Something like your imagined God might exist. You might have an antenna that I lack, but even given these two things, there is no way you could decipher and make sense of the incoming data. In other words, if there is a data stream from "out there" without interaction and feedback from the environment, the data stream would be meaningless and undeciperable. You cannot have any idea what you are really experiencing. Perhaps the sun is a live entity beaming his thoughts to you. Perhaps there is a giant frog in the center of the moon and somehow he affects the tides and this is what you feel. To connect your experience, whatever it is, to an omnipotent creator is simply unwarranted. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 7:39 AMHere are some more thoughts I have had about the fact that no one can actually believe in God. We have an interesting parallel to God belief, in the belief many children have in Santa Claus. Adults encourage the belief and generally, never give away the secret until the child comes to the conclusion on is own that there is no Santa Claus. Between the time when the child fully believes because he believes everything his parents tell him and the time he concludes Santa Claus is not real, there is a long period of time when he really knows that Santa Claus is not real, but he believes it because he really wants to believe it. The world is much more interesting and exciting to the child with Santa Claus than without him.
One thing that I have noticed is that the most intelligent children are able to believe in Santa Claus longer than others. They have the ability to make an imaginary thing very real. At the same time, they are very good at making observations that give them clues to what is real and what is not. To believe in Santa Claus, they must perform another impressive mental feat- they must separate the observational part of their brains from the part that does all the imagining- not an easy trick at all.
Adults who believe in God are in the same position as the children who want to believe in Santa Claus, but already know he can’t be real. Their ability to make an imagined thing real to them, coupled with the amazing mental dexterity required to ignore virtually all that they observe about the world in order to maintain their “belief” is quite astounding.
So we can see that atheists and non-believers are really the stupid ones. Believing in something entirely imaginary is an astounding mental feat, requiring great intelligence and mental dexterity. Of course, they do not really believe it, just like children of a certain age, pretending to believe in Santa Claus, they pretend to believe in God.
All I have to offer, at this stage to all those pretending to believe- life without Christmas and Santa Claus may not have all the sparkling lights and presents under the tree, but it is real and it is good and there is no need to continue to pretend to believe in God- you can make it without this fantasy. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 9:45 AM
But Santa Claus is real... he’s an old bearded fat man with rosy cheeks in a red suit that comes from the north
pole to bring love fun joy and toys ……I see him on t.v. ever year
Santa Claus is you and me ...it’s the Spirit of Christmas that's real FEEL it -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, November 7, 2006 - 11:24 PMbut I don't do Christmas, I celebrate Yule!!!!
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 10:41 AM
Rene:
"if i saw a Yellow fish at the center of the Milky Way galaxy, would you dismiss my claim and ask for proof, or would you assume it is simply a product of my wild imagination.. Well I have some "proof"--> I have a nice picture of the fish."
"Show me your picture of God and I will give you credence"
Chaz: do you beleive in your Thoughts? show me a picture of them...do you believe in Love show it to me ...how about Time, Energy, Gravity
show me a picture
what would be your requirement for proof Rene?...what would you need?
First define God?
I think you’re confusing proof with truth
You cannot define "atheist" without referenceing "god" The word atheist means no-god or not-god, and is defined as one who rejects or does not believe that there is a god(s). Whether there is a god or any sort of divine anything is another question entirely.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 10:26 PM>>"what would be your requirement for proof Rene?...what would you need?"<<
Actually, proof of God might be quite simple. One would only need to show one single aspect of the world that would be necessarily different if there were a God, as opposed to a world without one. First, of course, you would have to define your God and give it certain attributes, then show how only these attributes could result in some certain aspect of our world.
A model for this kind of approach would be the discovery of the planet Pluto. Astronomers were convinced of its existence before it was seen in telescopes because of pertubations in Neptune's orbit which could only be explained by another planet.
Of course, if God were to show up at my door in pink pajamas and declare he needed a bed for the night, I would most likely consider this proof also.
The reality of the situation is that there are innumerable aspects of our world that simply make no sense, given a God with the most common descriptions and there is no viable data or observations that require any God theory to explain them, thus there is no reason to give the theory any credence or consideration whatsoever.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 11:47 PM
Rene,
What if god wasn’t single but, omnipotence, everywhere and everything say like energy or something?
Rene: "First, of course, you would have to define your God and give it certain attributes,
then show how only these attributes could result in some certain aspect of our world."
Well, I was hoping you could do that, define god and how it could result in some certain way,
you say it doesn’t exist describe what doesn’t exist?
Pluto is there, their description and interpretation of what a planet is changed
Rene: “Of course, if God were to show up at my door in pink pajamas and declare he needed a bed for the night, I would most likely consider this proof also.”
LOL! Now that’s funny
Rene: “The reality of the situation “no sense, no viable data or observations thus there is no reason to give the theory any credence or consideration whatsoever.”
But you never answered my question about if you believed in your Thoughts, Time, Energy, Love, Gravity…
I wondered if you believed in them... we both know science can’t prove them -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 6:37 AM>>"But you never answered my question about if you believed in your Thoughts, Time, Energy, Love, Gravity… "<<
Chaz, you have already thrown this question at me several times and I have fully answered in great detail at least twice before. In both cases you offered no reasoned response. There is therefore no call for me to address this question again. Simply refer to my earlier posts.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 7:06 AM>>"describe what doesn’t exist?"<<
Right Chaz, I will describe what doesn't exist, as soon as you describe for me a square circle. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 9:12 AM
Renem,
easy, a square with a circle inside...you say there is no god now prove it -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 12:47 PMSorry Chaz, that would be a square and a circle, not a square circle. Keep trying... -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 12:58 PM
you said a square and a circle...but ok, a square and a circle?... i like the circle around the square..how's that...
and you have Not anwsered this question?...it's real quick yes or no? do you believe in your Thoughts, Time, Gravity, Love? -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 1:11 PM>>" i like the circle around the square..how's that"<<
again this would be a circle plus a square; not a square circle, but keep trying... maybe you might do better trying to describe a circular square... -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 1:17 PM
hahaha ok hows this O + square LOL!
come on Rene....think hard now... i bet you believe in one of those... it can be liberating, just say it -
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Unsu...
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, November 7, 2006 - 11:29 PMChaz,
From what I have read you are posting to a wall. And a VERY THICK ONE for that matter. You did explain yourself, and quite we, she just couldn't accept that. Do yourself a favor and do not play yourself into the hands of those who are so close minded. I have read your posts and they DEFINITELY deserve better.
Amethyst
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 1:38 PM"Additionally, the idea that you, I or anyone might sense God is absurd."
That statement is absurd.
You asked me to prove that you assume too much.
I did that by making the observation that you cannot prove your statement that "This entity cannot be seen or heard or felt or sensed," and have no evidence of this beyond your own non-sensing of such, and your personal belief, and continued assumption, that anyone who claims to have sensed such is either lying or deluded.
Once again, you assume too much.
Saying, "No, I don't" does not alter that fact.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 2:46 PMStating that you can know the internal states of others is hubris of the highest order. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 3:04 PMhas anybody seen my invisible friend...?
this trip is kind of a downer and I don't want to seem ungrateful but I need to ask a few favours...
www.sign69.com/medialounge/way.html -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 11:28 PM
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 3:59 PMtrickster loves hubris! hubris is his invitation to kick ass!
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 2:37 PMIt can be seen any moment... i can see something....or i can look into something.... when I understand...it looks different... when some one else looks at it...it is a whole other view.... seeing is in the eye of the beholder... can you listen to your self...? I can tell myself something... I wont hear it with my ears...but I hear it...
feeling....of course....those are the roots...
sensed...?
feel? hear? see?
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Unsu...
Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, December 22, 2006 - 1:49 AMI believe in God. I do not need a physical being to present himself in order to believe. What you refer to as "stupid", is called faith.
People, being individuals, have their own perceptions of things, both tangible and not. I have a very infantile view of God. I do not spend hours pondering his existance, or why things happen certain ways. I just have faith. It is that simple for me. Contrary to what you may think regarding this reply, I am not a stupid lemming in this world. I am analytical, intelligent and non-judgemental. I think and reason, but I do not doubt God's existence. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Fri, December 22, 2006 - 10:14 PM>>"I just have faith... I do not doubt God's existence"<<
This is not an unusual circumstance. I don't think this attitude has much to do with intellectual ability. Most of my teachers, my parents, and just about everyone in power in the world share this attitude and many, if not all of them are certainly smarter than I am. It actually is quite an intellectual feat to imagine something you have not experienced, be able to picture it in suffcient detail to convince yourself it corresponds to reality despite no supporting evidence. Rather it appears to me to me a misuse of one's intellectual gifts. To not question, not doubt, not deeply examine the ideas presented to you is the easy route which most people take. It is easy to hear a nice story and pretend it is reality.
The thesis I am examing here is that no one has certain knowledge about God. You say you do not doubt God's existence, but do you consider this certain knowledge? Certain knowledge would be the absolute conviction in the existence of something because you have directly experienced its effects. You have certain knowledge there is a sun that will rise tomorrow morning, for example. Would you put God in the same category of knowledge as the sun? We have had some claim such knowledge on this thread, but it appears that all they had were experiences they attributed to God that took place inside their own brains and whatever might have produced the experience could not be tied directly to any specific generating force, nor could this generating force, if it existed outside of their brains be tied to a god or god-like entity. Their very weak response was, they just knew it was God. There is no viable mechanism by which anyone can "just know" anything, although it is very easy to convince yourself that such a thing has happened.
So to reiterate my thesis:
Everyone is in the same boat, none of us have certain knowledge about God.
The theist understands this but believes in belief. He considers faith a good and necessary thing.
The agnostic understands this and says no decision can or should be made.
The atheist understands this but he does not believe in belief. He believes we should remain skeptical about all ideas and only accept ideas for which there is some logical necessity or testable proof.
The point I am really trying to make is that the argument between theists and atheists when taken to base level is not about God concepts or even proof or lack of proof about God, but about whether one believes in belief, whether one considers that faith is necessary and good, or whether it is not necessary and not always good.
One must concede that faith serves a function in that without some faith that people will behave a certain way, that the physical world will follow some non-chaotic laws, it would be difficult if not impossible to act and live in this world. However, when this faith is carried forward to embrace concepts like omnipresent, all-powerful gods and eternal life, it has simply been taken too far: to a place that is not only unwarranted, but to actually potentially dangerous extremes. A simple example would be jumping in a river when you can't swim believing that God would take care of you.
This dangerous extreme of faith is one of the grave failings of our present world culture. Religious people appear to not have the proper concern for taking care of our home world. Their lack of concern can be accredited to their belief that there can't really be a problem, since God is taking care of us, or even worse, they may be actively hoping for world catastrophe, since it seems to fit with some of their more insane beliefs about what their imagined God might have planned.
Here is what I believe would provide the best possibility for human survival, happiness, and prosperity. First, we must recognize that faith taken to extremes is a dangerous thing and take full responsibility for the fate of this planet. Second, rather than believing in belief, we ought to recognize that the tenets of all religions are conjectures and treat them for what they are. If one favors one conjecture over another, it is not worth dying for, whereas many people are willing to die for their beliefs. If everyone labeled their thoughts about Gods, death, meaning and purpose as conjectures, waiting on further supporting evidence, rather than beliefs, we might all be able to get along. As long as we label these conjectures as beliefs, we will go on fighting and killing each other because of them. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sat, December 23, 2006 - 3:00 AM[Certain knowledge would be the absolute conviction in the existence of something because you have directly experienced its effects. You have certain knowledge there is a sun that will rise tomorrow morning, for example.]
In Divine scripture after Divine scripture after Divine scripture it is written that the Most Great Being uttered the Word "BE" and it all began. Cause and effect. Outside of my brain for all to see. You chose to call it chaos. You chose to not see any correlation between the Scriptures of all of the Divine religions and what is.
It is a poor science you start with when you have already made up your mind what the end result will be. You skew the results from the beginning. It is your "thesis" however, and your free to skew it to your hearts content. I don't have to play the game with you if I find it too bothersome.
[This dangerous extreme of faith is one of the grave failings of our present world culture. Religious people appear to not have the proper concern for taking care of our home world. Their lack of concern can be accredited to their belief that there can't really be a problem, since God is taking care of us, or even worse, they may be actively hoping for world catastrophe, since it seems to fit with some of their more insane beliefs about what their imagined God might have planned. ]
Blather! Blather! Blather!!!!
Conservation and Sustainable Development in the Bahá'í Faith
This paper was presented by the Bahá'í International Community to the Summit on the Alliance Between Religions and Conservation. The summit - hosted by HRH Prince Phillip, the Duke of Edinburgh, and co-sponsored by the World Wide Fund for Nature (WWF), the Pilkington Foundation and MOA International - was held in two sessions. These sessions took place in Atami, Japan, from 3-9 April 1995 and in Windsor Castle, United Kingdom, from 29 April - 3 May 1995. The summit involved leaders from nine major faiths: Bahá'í, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Islamic, Jain, Jewish, Sikh, and Taoist.
Windsor, England
3 May 1995
I. The Bahá'í Teachings on Conservation and Sustainable Development
In this age of transition toward a world society, protection of the environment and conservation of the earth's resources represent an enormously complex challenge. The rapid progress in science and technology that has united the world physically has also greatly accelerated destruction of the biological diversity and rich natural heritage with which the planet has been endowed. Material civilization, driven by the dogmas of consumerism and aggressive individualism and disoriented by the weakening of moral standards and spiritual values, has been carried to excess
Only a comprehensive vision of a global society, supported by universal values and principles, can inspire individuals to take responsibility for the long-term care and protection of the natural environment. Bahá'ís find such a world-embracing vision and system of values in the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh - teachings which herald an era of planetary justice, prosperity and unity
Bahá'u'lláh enjoins His followers to develop a sense of world citizenship and a commitment to stewardship of the earth. His writings are imbued with a deep respect for the natural world and for the interconnectedness of all things. They emphasize that the fruits of God's love and obedience to His commandments are dignity, nobility and a sense of worth. From these attributes emerge the natural inclination to treat one another with love and compassion, and the willingness to sacrifice for the betterment of society. Bahá'u'lláh also teaches moderation, a commitment to justice, and detachment from the things of this world - spiritual disciplines which enable individuals to contribute to the establishment of a prosperous and united world civilization. The broad pattern for such a civilization and the principles on which it should be based are set forth in Bahá'u'lláh's Revelation, a revelation which offers hope to a dispirited humanity and the promise that it is truly possible both to meet the needs of present and future generations and to build a sound foundation for social and economic development. The inspiration and the vision for this civilization are captured in Bahá'u'lláh's words: "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens."1
Among the principles guiding the Bahá'í approach to conservation and sustainable development, the following are of particular importance
nature reflects the qualities and attributes of God and should, therefore, be greatly respected and cherished;
all things are interconnected and flourish according to the law of reciprocity; and
the oneness of humanity is the fundamental spiritual and social truth shaping our age.
Bahá'í Scriptures describe nature as an emanation of God's will
Nature in its essence is the embodiment of My Name, the Maker, the Creator. Its manifestations are diversified by varying causes, and in this diversity there are signs for men of discernment. Nature is God's Will and is its expression in and through the contingent world. It is a dispensation of Providence ordained by the Ordainer, the All-Wise.2
Understanding nature as a reflection of the majesty and an expression of the purpose of God inspires a deep respect for the natural world
(W)hatever I behold I readily discover that it maketh Thee known unto me, and it remindeth me of Thy signs, and of Thy tokens, and of Thy testimonies. By Thy glory! Every time I lift up mine eyes unto Thy heaven, I call to mind Thy highness and Thy loftiness, and Thine incomparable glory and greatness; and every time I turn my gaze to Thine earth, I am made to recognize the evidences of Thy power and the tokens of Thy bounty. And when I behold the sea, I find that it speaketh to me of Thy majesty, and of the potency of Thy might, and of Thy sovereignty and Thy grandeur. And at whatever time I contemplate the mountains, I am led to discover the ensigns of Thy victory and the standards of Thine Omnipotence.3
This attitude of respect is further reinforced by copious metaphorical references to the natural world woven throughout the Bahá'í Scriptures. However, while nature is greatly valued and respected, it is not to be worshipped or adored. Rather it is to serve the purpose given by God to the human race: to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. In this regard, the Bahá'í Faith promotes a world view that is neither bio-centric nor, strictly speaking, anthropocentric, but rather theocentric, with the Revelations of God at its center. Humankind, as it strives to carry out the Divine Will in this, the physical realm, is thus the trustee or steward of nature
Responsible stewardship of the natural world logically extends to the humane treatment of animals
(I)t is not only their fellow human beings that the beloved of God must treat with mercy and compassion, rather must they show forth the utmost loving-kindness to every living creature.4
Train your children from the earliest days to be infinitely tender and loving to animals.5
All things are interconnected and flourish according to the law of reciprocity
The principles of interconnectedness and reciprocity underlie the Bahá'í understanding of both the operations of the universe and the responsibilities of humankind
For every part of the universe is connected with every other part by ties that are very powerful and admit of no imbalance, nor any slackening whatever...6
(C)o-operation and reciprocity are essential properties which are inherent in the unified system of the world of existence, and without which the entire creation would be reduced to nothingness.7
Were one to observe with an eye that discovereth the realities of all things, it would become clear that the greatest relationship that bindeth the world of being together lieth in the range of created things themselves, and that cooperation, mutual aid and reciprocity are essential characteristics in the unified body of the world of being, inasmuch as all created things are closely related together and each is influenced by the other or deriveth benefit therefrom, either directly or indirectly.8
Evolutionary processes are explicitly affirmed in Bahá'í Scriptures
All beings, whether large or small, were created perfect and complete from the first, but their perfections appear in them by degrees. The organization of God is one; the evolution of existence is one; the divine system is one. ... When you consider this universal system, you see that there is not one of the beings which at its coming into existence has reached the limit of perfection. No, they gradually grow and develop, and then attain the degree of perfection.9
The blessings of bio-diversity are also highlighted:
(D)iversity is the essence of perfection and the cause of the appearance of the bestowals of the Most glorious Lord.... This diversity, this difference is like the naturally created dissimilarity and variety of the limbs and organs of the human body, for each one contributeth to the beauty, efficiency and perfection of the whole.... How unpleasing to the eye if all the flowers and plants, the leaves and blossoms, the fruits, the branches and the trees of that garden were all of the same shape and color! Diversity of hues, form and shape, enricheth and adorneth the garden, and heighteneth the effect thereof...10
The spiritual and material planes are interconnected and act upon each other
We cannot segregate the human heart from the environment outside us and say that once one of these is reformed everything will be improved. Man is organic with the world. His inner life moulds the environment and is itself also deeply affected by it. The one acts upon the other and every abiding change in the life of man is the result of these mutual reactions.11
Given the fundamental unity of science and religion - the interconnectedness of the material and spiritual realms - it is not surprising that scientific pursuits are highly praised:
(T)he faculty of intellectual investigation into the secrets of creation... is the most praiseworthy power of man, for through its employment and exercise the betterment of the human race is accomplished, the development of the virtues of mankind is made possible...12
However, the exercise of the faculty of investigation must be guided by spiritual principles, especially moderation and humility.
(A)ny agency whatever, though it be the instrument of mankind's greatest good, is capable of misuse.13
If carried to excess, civilization will prove as prolific a source of evil as it had been of goodness when kept within the restraints of moderation.14
Every man of discernment, while walking upon the earth, feeleth indeed abashed, inasmuch as he is fully aware that the thing which is the source of his prosperity, his wealth, his might, his exaltation, his advancement and power is, as ordained by God, the very earth which is trodden beneath the feet of all men. There can be no doubt that whoever is cognizant of this truth, is cleansed and sanctified from all pride, arrogance, and vainglory....15
In light of the interdependence and reciprocity of all parts of nature, the evolutionary perfection of all beings, and the importance of diversity "to the beauty, efficiency and perfection of the whole,"16 it is clear to Bahá'ís that, in the ordering of human affairs, every effort should be made to preserve as much as possible the earth's bio-diversity and natural order.
Nevertheless, in the process of extending social and economic justice to the entire human family, certain difficult and possibly irreversible decisions may have to be taken. Such decisions, Bahá'ís believe, should be made within a consultative framework, involving those affected and taking into account the impact of any resulting policies, programs and activities on the quality of life of subsequent generations
For Bahá'ís, Bahá'u'lláh's promise that civilization will exist on this planet for a minimum of five thousand centuries makes it unconscionable to ignore the long-term impact of decisions made today. The world community must, therefore, learn to make use of the earth's natural resources, both renewable and non-renewable, in a manner that ensures sustainability into the distant reaches of time. This does not, however, mean that Bahá'ís advocate a "hands-off, back to the woods" policy. On the contrary, the world civilization that Bahá'ís believe will eventually emerge will be animated by a deep religious faith and will be one in which science and technology will serve humanity and help it to live in harmony with nature.
The oneness of humanity is the fundamental spiritual and social truth shaping our age.
The oneness of humanity is, for Bahá'ís, the operating principle and ultimate goal of humankind's collective life on the planet. It is applicable not only to the individual, but also to the relationships that must bind all the states and nations as members of one human family:
The oneness of mankind... implies an organic change in the structure of present-day society, a change such as the world has not yet experienced.... It calls for no less than the reconstruction and the demilitarization of the whole civilized world - a world organically unified in all the essential aspects of its life, its political machinery, its spiritual aspiration, its trade and finance, its script and language, and yet infinite in the diversity of the national characteristics of its federated units.17
It represents the consummation of human evolution... and... carries with it no more and no less than a solemn assertion that attainment to this final stage in this stupendous evolution is not only necessary but inevitable, that its realization is fast approaching, and that nothing short of a power that is born of God can succeed in establishing it.18
Bahá'í Scriptures maintain that adherence to the principle of the oneness of humanity will have a direct and enduring impact on man's spiritual, social and physical environments. Universal acceptance of this principle will entail a major restructuring of the world's educational, social, agricultural, industrial, economic, legal and political systems. This restructuring will facilitate the emergence of a sustainable, just and prosperous world civilization. Ultimately only a spiritually based civilization - in which science and religion work in harmony - will be able to preserve the ecological balance of the earth, foster stability in human population, and advance both the material and the spiritual well-being of all peoples and nations
In Conclusion
Bahá'í Scriptures teach that, as trustees of the planet's vast resources and biological diversity, humanity must seek to protect the "heritage [of] future generations;"19 see in nature a reflection of the divine; approach the earth, the source of material bounties, with humility; temper its actions with moderation; and be guided by the fundamental spiritual truth of our age, the oneness of humanity. The speed and facility with which we establish a sustainable pattern of life will depend, in the final analysis, on the extent to which we are willing to be transformed, through the love of God and obedience to His Laws, into constructive forces in the process of creating an ever-advancing civilization
II. An Overview of the Bahá'í World Community's Environmental Program Since Joining the Network on Conservation and Religion in 1987
Individual Bahá'ís and Bahá'í communities have, for decades, been involved in the protection and preservation of the environment. During the last ten years, however, there has been a notable growth in these initiatives
On the global level, the Bahá'í International Community officially joined the World Wide Fund for Nature's (WWF) Network On Conservation And Religion in 1987.
In 1989 a compilation of extracts from the Bahá'í Writings was released to the Bahá'í world. This compilation, Conservation of the Earth's Resources, has been widely studied in Bahá'í communities across the planet and has provided increased insight and inspiration for Bahá'ís undertaking conservation initiatives
That same year an Office of the Environment was created within the Bahá'í International Community. The Office of the Environment represents the Bahá'í International Community at the United Nations and in other international fora addressing issues of sustainable development. It brings environmental concerns to the attention of Bahá'í communities and catalyzes activity by providing communities with information and by helping them to network with individuals, institutions and resources.
Scores of national Bahá'í communities - including Brazil, Japan, Malaysia, the Netherlands, Nigeria, Norway, Pakistan, the Philippines, and Taiwan - and many local communities have set up Environment Offices or the equivalent. These offices promote sustainable development activities and education, often in cooperation with other organizations and individuals with similar principles and goals. Many other communities have incorporated environmental protection into the purview of their already established Offices of Social and Economic Development
The following examples of environmental initiatives and development activities involving Bahá'í communities and individuals are grouped together loosely under five categories: education and training; projects; the arts; advocacy; and Bahá'í Holy Places and gardens.
Education and Training
Numerous education and public awareness programs to encourage conservation and sustainable development have been launched by Bahá'í communities and individuals world-wide
Bahá'í communities around the world are engaged in a continual effort to better understand and apply the Bahá'í Teachings to the environmental challenges before humanity. They are examining the Bahá'í Scriptures concerning conservation and development and exploring ways to translate the teachings into action. Individual and collective study, reflection, and consultation often lead to plans and projects.
Articles on environment and development have been written by a number of Bahá'í scholars, and several Bahá'í publications now regularly contain conservation-related information and ideas.
Bahá'í schools, summer schools, youth conferences and other meetings have devoted sessions and sometimes entire programs to issues of environment and development. Working groups on issues of sustainable development have been formed under the aegis of various national and regional Associations For Bahá'í Studies.
The Bahá'í Office of the Environment for Japan has started environmental education programs in community groups in Honshu and Kyushu.
The Bahá'í community of Brazil, in conjunction with the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), launched a conservation education program, which trained school teachers in and around the capital, Brasilía, and produced curriculum materials and a video. The second phase of this project is currently underway, replicating these activities in several Brazilian states.
Various local and national Bahá'í communities from Saskatoon, Fort Murray and Leicester, to Zimbabwe, Guyana and India - have developed locally relevant conservation curriculum modules and teaching materials.
The Bahá'í Office of the Environment for Taiwan, in collaboration with the national government, has trained hundreds of teachers throughout the country to introduce conservation issues into curricula. The Office has also produced a series of national radio educational programs on environmental care and protection.
Núr University in Santa Cruz, Bolivia, whose philosophies of education and administration are derived from Bahá'í principles, has initiated a Masters Degree program in Development.
Bahá'í community radio stations in six countries carry programs and public service announcements on various issues of environment and development, including sustainable agricultural practices and care for the earth.
Environmental camps are held by Bahá'í youth in Colombia to study conservation principles as found in Bahá'í Scriptures and to translate these principles into action.
Ecología Y Unidad Mundial (Ecology and World Unity), a bimonthly newspaper put out by the Bahá'í community of Argentina, covers issues of environment and development. It is sold throughout Argentina and distributed world-wide.
Vanguardia Trust, a Bahá'í-inspired organization which began in Puerto Rico, produces a quarterly newsletter of ideas and projects focusing on education, appropriate technology and development.
One Country, the quarterly newsletter of the Bahá'í International Community, which is sent to over 30,000 individuals and organizations (in Chinese, English, French, German, Russian and Spanish), regularly covers issues of environment and development.
Projects
Conservation projects have ranged from individual initiatives such as Rainbow Reforestation, an effort by two Bahá'ís, Mrs. Anne Marie and Mr. Michael Karlberg, to apply spiritual principles of unity and consultation to large-scale reforestation work in Canada; to community-initiated clean-up campaigns by Bahá'í youth in Scotland and tree-planting in Iceland, Pakistan, Uganda, Brazil, Haiti and Australia
The Tora-san Project is an ongoing experiment in organic farming by the Bahá'í community of Japan. Located near the city of Kurume, Kyushu, children, youth and adults are learning to grow food without pesticides and artificial fertilizers.
The Bahá'í Vocational Institute for Rural Women in Indore, India, has programs dedicated to improving the spiritual, physical and social environments. At the Earth Summit, the Institute received the Global 500 Award from the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP).
The Clean and Beautiful Swaziland campaign has been lauded by the national government for its work in cleaning the Swazi countryside. The campaign's founder, Dr. Irma Allen, a Swazi Bahá'í, also received UNEP's prestigious Global 500 Award.
Mrs. Fatima Traazil, a Bahá'í from Singapore, won the national "Green Leaf Award" from the Ministry for the Environment for her ongoing campaign to promote sound environmental principles by encouraging recycling and discouraging waste.
New Dawn Engineering, a Bahá'í-run initiative in Swaziland, produces environmentally friendly appropriate technologies.
Over 40 national Bahá'í communities around the world initiated activities on the 20th Anniversary of Earth Day in 1990. Bahá'í communities continue to be active each year both on Earth Day and on World Environment Day.
The SR-2 solar radio, produced for the Vanguardia Trust by Dr. Dean K Stevens, a Bahá'í, has contributed new technology to the field of solar-voltaic radio. Ten thousand SR-2s have been produced and the model is being field-tested by a number of governmental and non-governmental organizations. An advanced model, SR-4, is currently being developed.
Fish farming projects have been initiated by Bahá'í communities in Bolivia and Malaysia.
The Bahá'í community in Cochabamba, Bolivia, has developed solar, altiplano greenhouses, and has extended this low-cost technology to several villages.
Many local Bahá'í communities throughout Malaysia are involved in recycling.
Short- and long-term tree-planting campaigns have been initiated by Bahá'í communities in many places across the planet: these include the Breath of Life tree-planting project of the Bahá'í community of Hawaii which planted indigenous trees on all the Hawaiian Islands; the reforestation efforts of the students of the Rabbani Bahá'í High School in Madhya Pradesh where tens of thousands of trees have been planted around the campus and in neighboring villages; the efforts of Bahá'ís in Washington, United States, to replant denuded stream banks; the villages reforestation project of the Anís Zunúzí Bahá'í School in Port au Prince, Haiti; and the campaign of the Bahá'ís of Iceland to plant thousands of trees on Skógar, the ancestral property of the famous Icelandic poet, Mr. Jochum M. Eggertsson.
The Bahá'í community of Mauritius was instrumental in launching a national, interfaith conservation network.
Bahá'í communities in Kenya are involved in the manufacture and distribution of charcoal-burning, fuel-efficient, "jiko" stoves.
The Bahá'í community of the Philippines, working in conjunction with the Department of Environment and Natural Resources, has been involved in environmental education and conservation work in the Camp John Hay National Park.
Many communities are involved in cleanup efforts and the beautification of parks, highways and riverbeds. Several of these efforts are ongoing, including "adopt a highway" campaigns.
The Arts
The importance of the arts in inspiring changes in attitudes and behavior is stressed in the Bahá'í Writings. Therefore, it is not surprising to find that many Bahá'í communities have used the arts to promote conservation awareness and commitment. These cover a wide range as is illustrated by the following examples
The Bahá'í International Community organized the Arts for Nature event at the Syon House in London, both to encourage artistic expression in the service of conservation and to raise funds for the World Wide Fund for Nature (WWF).
The Singapore Bahá'í Women's Committee organized a similar national Arts For Nature event. Many artistic works were created by Singaporean artists for this event, and funds were raised for conservation projects in the region.
The Bahá'í community of the Philippines has organized music festivals to raise awareness of national environmental issues.
The Bahá'í International Community and its national Brazilian affiliate, in collaboration with UNICEF, produced a book of children's artwork, Tomorrow Belongs to the Children. Thousands of school children from 26 nations around the world discussed issues of sustainable development and produced artwork and poetry from these discussions. Contests were then held to choose works to appear in this book. Tomorrow Belongs to the Children, with its poignant messages, has been distributed to thousands of individuals, including Heads of State and UN Ambassadors.
In 1994, the Bahá'í Office of the Environment for Taiwan held an international children's art contest and exhibition on the theme, "Our Fragile Environment." This exhibition was seen by tens of thousands of people. A second contest and exhibition, "Animals and Me," is scheduled for late 1995.
The Peace Monument in Rio de Janeiro, stands as an enduring symbol of the new spirit of global cooperation which characterized the Earth Summit and the Global Forum. An initiative of the Bahá'í International Community and its national Brazilian affiliate, the monument was designed by the renowned Brazilian artist and sculptor, Mr. Siron Franco. As part of the closing ceremonies of the these twin historic events, soil from 40 nations was deposited by children into the five-meter high, hourglass-shaped concrete and ceramic monument. Soil from additional countries is ceremoniously added each year on World Environment Day. Over 80 nations have contributed thus far. Inscribed on the monument, as a reminder of the highest ideals of the Earth Summit and Global Forum, are the following words: "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens - Bahá'u'lláh."
Advocacy
The Bahá'í world has become increasingly engaged in advocating for conservation and sustainable development
The Bahá'í International Community and many of its local and national affiliates participated extensively in the entire process leading up to and including the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development (or Earth Summit). Close to one million copies of statements and concept papers written by the Bahá'í International Community on issues of environment and development were distributed world-wide in several languages. Bahá'í communities active in this historic process worked with their governments and the organizations of civil society. In the process, many Bahá'ís became better educated about the issues addressed by the Earth Summit and became much more globally aware.
The Bahá'í International Community, in collaboration with other organizations, has hosted two World Forestry Charter Gatherings, one in 1989 and one in 1994. The first World Forestry Charter Gatherings assembled diplomats to the Court of St. James in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s to discuss the state of the world's forests. These Gatherings were initiated by Dr. Richard St. Barbe Baker, who was among the earliest of global environmentalists, and who also began in the 1920s a series of ambitious projects - including travels, field work, lectures and writings - dedicated to bringing world-wide attention to the condition of our environment. The 1989 World Forestry Charter Gathering commemorated the 100th anniversary of Dr. Baker's birth and addressed actual programs aimed at preserving the world's forests. The 1994 Gathering was particularly noteworthy for its focus on the Forest Principles, adopted at the Earth Summit, and for highlighting the need to view the forests as the common heritage of humanity in order to conserve and sustainably manage them into the distant future.
The Bahá'í International Community is one of the founding members and principle supporters of the Advocates for African Food Security: Lessening the Burden for Women, a coalition of organizations formed to raise awareness, particularly among policy makers, of the critical role African women farmers play in ensuring the continent's food security.
Many Bahá'í communities are now working with local authorities and organizations of civil society to encourage implementation of Agenda 21, the global action-plan for sustainable development adopted by the Earth Summit. For example, Bahá'í communities throughout Germany and the United Kingdom are approaching local authorities (the subject of Chapter 28 of Agenda 21) to discuss promoting the concept of world citizenship as a moral and ethical basis for development. Similarly, Bahá'í communities in Denmark, Sweden and Australia have launched campaigns in schools focusing on world citizenship.
Bahá'í communities are increasingly involved on the local, national and international levels in conferences, round-tables, commissions and coalitions, many in connection with major UN consultations. Bahá'ís participated extensively in the Earth Summit process, the Global Conference on the Sustainable Development of Small Island Developing States, the '94 Global Forum, the International Conference on Population and Development, the World Summit for Social Development, and the Commission on Sustainable Development.
Bahá'í Holy Places and Gardens
Bahá'í Holy Places and Bahá'í Houses of Worship are known throughout the world for their exquisite gardens. The gardens at the Bahá'í World Centre, so dear to Bahá'í pilgrims as havens for spiritual rejuvenation, also attract large numbers of tourists from all parts of the globe. Their beauty and tranquillity inspire a deep respect for the natural world. The metaphor of nature that runs throughout the Bahá'í Scriptures has found expression in a very practical, yet sublime, form in these gardens
The spiritual and administrative centers of the Bahá'í World are by design situated together and surrounded by magnificent beauty. Indeed, it is this design which inspires reflection on the idea that spiritual development, administration of community affairs, and respect for nature are inseparable elements of all programs aimed at promoting the well-being of humanity while building a sustainable world civilization.
Youth from around the world, offering a year of service at the World Centre, serve as volunteers in the Bahá'í Gardens. Many of these young people have not only developed, through this work, a deeper respect for nature, but have carried back to their own communities an abiding commitment to conservation
III. Bahá'í Initiatives in the Fields of Conservation and Sustainable Development: Future Prospects
Development, for Bahá'ís, implies a dynamic coherence between the spiritual and material requirements of life on earth. The Bahá'í approach to development is organic and seeks to harmonize the seemingly paradoxical concepts of globalism and decentralization. Overall direction and guiding principles are established on the international - and often national - levels, helping to ensure a sense of global process and mission in all development activities. At the same time, actual programs and activities arise largely from individual or community initiative, are driven by community decision-making processes and are based on the principle of universal participation. They are, therefore, likely to address the needs, conditions and aspirations of the local/national society. Because of this approach, it is not possible to detail the projects and programs that communities will undertake in the coming years; however, the broad features of future development activities can be suggested
In the years immediately ahead, the Bahá'í world community will, no doubt, expand the scope and range of its conservation and sustainable development initiatives, while continuing along the lines already established including
education and training efforts focusing on conservation issues;
projects, both individual and community-based, aimed at the protection and restoration of the environment;
the use of the arts to inspire an active commitment to environmental protection and development; and
advocacy for sustainable development at local, national, and international levels.
The ongoing, vast extension of the gardens at the Bahá'í World Centre, including the erection of terraces from the foot to the summit of Mount Carmel, will increase the grandeur and majesty of this focal point of the Bahá'í World while providing an extended environment in which a deep respect for nature and a life-long commitment to its care and protection can be developed. Likewise, the grounds around Bahá'í properties, including Bahá'í Houses of Worship, will continue to be beautified to serve as an inspiration for all who visit them.
The Bahá'í world will intensify the process of seeking to apply spiritual principles of unity, justice, solidarity and moderation to the economic, technological, social and political challenges of today. It will increasingly collaborate with like-minded individuals and groups - including organizations of civil society, government and others - to help bring about the fundamental changes needed in society if peace and sustainable development are to be realized
The Bahá'í world will work ceaselessly to develop in all its members - children, youth and adults - a deep respect for nature as a reflection of the majesty of the Divine, and a global consciousness based on the spiritual principles of unity in diversity, justice, love and service
Bahá'í communities will endeavor to grow in solidarity and practical experience, thereby demonstrating a new pattern of development at the grass roots capable of restoring both human dignity and the environment, and showing that the unity of the human race is not a utopian ideal but a practical possibility
Above all, the Bahá'í world will continue to foster hope for the future. It will confidently share its conviction that, by following God's will for today, humanity will be transformed, unity and peace will be attained, and a prosperous, sustainable world civilization - the fruits of which will be enjoyed by the entire human family - will emerge and extend into the distant future
Notes
1. Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh. Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1976, section CXVII, page 250
2. Bahá'u'lláh, from 'Tablet of Wisdom', published in Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas (revised edition). Haifa: Bahá'í World Centre, 1982, page 142
3. Bahá'u'lláh, Prayers and Meditations by Bahá'u'lláh. Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1987, section CLXXVI, page 272
4. `Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá (revised edition). Haifa: Bahá'í World Centre, 1982, section 138, pages 158-60
5. `Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá, section 138, pages 158-60
6. `Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá, section 137, page 157
7. `Abdu'l-Bahá, from a previously untranslated Tablet
8. `Abdu'l-Bahá, from a previously untranslated Tablet
9. `Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions. Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1981 (reprint: 1982), page 199
10. `Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá, section 225, page 291
11. Secretary of Shoghi Effendi, from a letter dated 17 February 1933 to an individual believer
12. `Abdu'l-Bahá, Promulgation of Universal Peace: Talks Delivered by `Abdu'l-Bahá during His Visit to the United States and Canada in 1912 (2nd edition). Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1982, page 31
13. `Abdu'l-Bahá, The Secret of Divine Civilization (2nd edition). Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1983, page 16
14. Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, section CLXIV, page 343
15. Bahá'u'lláh, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf (revised edition). Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1979, page 44
16. `Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá, section 225, page 291
17. Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh - Selected Letters. Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1974 (revised edition), pages 42-43
18. Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh - Selected Letters, page 43
19. Shoghi Effendi, from a cable dated 23 May 1951 to the New Earth Luncheon, London, UK
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Creating a Fore Ordained Univeral Culture of Human Rights
Sat, December 23, 2006 - 3:14 AMwww.bic-un.bahai.org/89-0215.htm
Creating a Universal Culture of Human Rights
Statement to the forty-fifth session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights
Agenda item 11: Further promotion and encouragement of human rights and fundamental freedoms, including the question of the programme and methods of work of the Commission; alternative approaches and ways and means within the United Nations system for improving the effective enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms; national institutions for the promotion and protection of human rights
Geneva, Switzerland
15 February 1989
The Bahá'í International Community welcomes the creation by the General Assembly of a world-wide educational and public information Campaign for Human Rights. Moreover, we are eager to support it. In our view, it is the logical next step toward the creation of a stable, peaceful world.
The Secretary-General, in his report to the forty-fifth session of the Commission on Human Rights (document number E/CN.4/1989/21) has articulated, as a major objective of this campaign, the creation of a "universal culture of human rights." Rooted as it is in the recognition of the organic oneness of mankind, a "universal culture of human rights" would form the very foundation for a world in which all could feel safe and secure -- a world in which a violation of the rights of one would be felt as a violation of the rights of all.
If respect for the rights of all were assured, then the leaders of the world could move toward the establishment of a world commonwealth in which all nations, races, creeds and classes are closely and permanently united.
We also welcome the World Campaign for Human Rights because the Bahá'í community has benefited directly from United Nations human rights legislation and its implementation machinery. Now, through the World Campaign for Human Rights, we can contribute to the United Nations what we and many other NGOs do best: education.
The time is ripe for a World Campaign for Human Rights. The world is coming to realize that progress demands cooperation. The global interrelatedness of communications, transportation, trade, and finance has become obvious. National leaders recognize more and more that their local problems are symptomatic of global problems. Increasingly groups of nations are formalizing relationships that allow them to collaborate in matters of mutual interest. Moreover, ordinary people all over the world, recognizing that no-one would escape the effects of a nuclear war, have rightly asserted that peace is everyone's concern.
We have come to understand, however, that peace demands more than the elimination of weapons. But what else? The Preamble to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states clearly one prerequisite for peace: (and I quote) "recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world." (end quote)
The United Nations has worked tirelessly for forty years to establish that foundation for freedom, justice and peace in the world. The work begun with the adoption by the General Assembly of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has been carried forward by the creation of related instruments, spelling out the specific provisions for implementation. The General Assembly, the Commission on Human Rights and the committees monitoring adherence to these measures must continue and expand their efforts to extend the influence of these instruments.
Now is the time to win the support of the generality of mankind for these standards of human conduct.
We welcome the efforts of both the Centre for Human Rights and the Department of Public Information to increase their cooperation with NGOs. These efforts will, no doubt, assist those involved with the United Nations human rights work to share with their constituencies and the public the universal nature of human rights and the importance of securing those rights for everyone.
We recommend, however, that the specialized agencies of the United Nations also find ways to participate in the Campaign. After all, each agency owes its mandate in one way or another to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. UNESCO is, among other things, promoting the right to education; UNICEF the rights of the child; ILO the right to work; FAO the right to food; and WHO the right to adequate health care. Each of these agencies could, as its contribution to the World Campaign for Human Rights, articulate the link between its efforts to assist the people of the world and their right to that assistance under the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
In conjunction with all these efforts, we believe the cooperation of NGOs is essential if a "universal culture of human rights" is to reach all strata of society. The Bahá'í International Community is one such international organization which is uniquely motivated and qualified to assist in this campaign.
We are both motivated and qualified by our close involvement with the human rights work of the United Nations over the years. Members of the Bahá'í community have been protected by the actions of this Commission and the General Assembly in implementing the standards of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; Bahá'í institutions have encouraged their governments to ratify the various Conventions; and the Bahá'í International Community has contributed to the process of setting standards.
More important, we bring to this work a long-standing commitment to kindling in individuals a devotion to human rights. In addition to promoting the work of the United Nations, we pledge to continue and to expand our efforts in over 20,000 communities world-wide to eliminate all forms of prejudice, to reduce the inordinate disparity between rich and poor, to achieve full equality between men and women, to promote religious tolerance, to nurture a sense of world citizenship and to contribute, thereby, to the creation of a "universal culture of human rights."
BIC Document #89-0215
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Re: Creating a Fore Ordained Univeral Culture of Human Rights
Sat, December 23, 2006 - 10:08 AM>>"You chose to call it chaos."<<
Frankly, I don't believe chaos sits at the root of anything. For anything to exist, it must follow some set of laws. What I imagine is that the universe has always existed and always will exist and a set of natrual laws determines the behavior of what exists. This would be true even if there were a God, as its existence would have to have been determined in the same way. Positing a God is unparsimonious and basically backwards as it puts a very complex thing at the root whereas it would seem to make more sense for complexity to arise gradually from simpler things.
I think it is great that your religion appears to support human responsibility for taking care of our home, however since it still appears to claim there is a divine power at the root of natural phenomona, then assuming this power can act effectively, the choices of humans should not matter much for the end result, so that while proclaiming the importance of environmental awareness, you undermine one important driving reason that we must fix things ourselves, by accepting the idea some greater force might fix things for us.
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Spiritual Based Solutions to world problems
Sat, December 23, 2006 - 3:49 AMwww.bic-un.bahai.org/91-1108.htm
Women and Men: Partnership for a Healthy Planet
Statement presented to the World Women's Congress for a Healthy Planet
Miami, U.S.A.
8-12 November, 1991
"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established." These prophetic words, uttered by Bahá'u'lláh during the closing decades of the nineteenth century were all but ignored by the leaders of that day. However, in the closing decade of the twentieth century, humanity has become increasingly aware of its interdependence and is convinced at last that no individual, institution or nation can live in total isolation from the whole. The environment/development crisis has caused many to rethink their view of the world and begin to look at the earth as a single organic, interdependent and unified system. Consequently, the search for balance between the needs of society and the limited resources of the natural world is taking place within the larger context of the search for balance, peace, and harmony within society itself.
The intimate link between the unity of the human race and equality of the sexes is explained in the Bahá'í Writings: ". . . woman must be given the privilege of equal education with man and full right to his prerogatives. That is to say, there must be no difference in the education of male and female in order that womankind may develop equal capacity and importance with man in the social and economic equation. Then the world will attain unity and harmony. In past ages humanity has been defective and inefficient because it has been incomplete. War and its ravages have blighted the world; the education of woman will be a mighty step toward its abolition and ending, for she will use her whole influence against war. Woman rears the child and educates the youth to maturity. She will refuse to give her sons for sacrifice upon the field of battle. In truth, she will be the greatest factor in establishing universal peace and international arbitration. Assuredly, woman will abolish warfare among mankind."
To date, most systems of social organization have marginalized women. Overall, modern development strategies have tended to reinforce and, at times, exacerbate conditions of inequality. To address inequality of the sexes, the United Nations launched the land-mark "United Nations Decade for Women: Equality, Development and Peace (1975-1985)."As a result of research undertaken during the Decade, the vital contributions of women to the social and economic life of their nations became more visible. The new research also highlighted the unnecessary burdens borne by women and the obstacles preventing their full participation in society. More significantly, the Decade brought women together and provided them with unprecedented opportunities to exchange views and experiences. Women found that their shared concerns for their own future and for that of the human family enabled them to transcend national, class, and racial boundaries. In addition, the Decade catalyzed the revitalization of traditional women's organizations and the creation of new grass-roots Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) addressing specific needs of women. These NGOs have facilitated an extensive networking among women, empowering them to articulate their needs, design their own programs, and begin affecting policy-making at all levels. As a result of efforts undertaken during the Decade, development planners have begun to address women's lack of access to resources such as education, technology, and credit. United Nations agencies, national governments, and international development agencies have established divisions to address the needs and concerns of women.
These are significant achievements which must be greatly strengthened and expanded. Despite some progress, however, women remain on the fringes of policy making, and the systems which have traditionally oppressed them remain largely intact. These systems adhere to the pattern of domination that has characterized society for thousands of years: men have dominated women; one racial or ethnic group has dominated another; and nation has dominated nation. Notwithstanding humanity's reluctance to change, "the balance is already shifting" - according to the Bahá'í Writings, "force is losing its weight and mental alertness, intuition, and the spiritual qualities of love and service, in which woman is strong, are gaining ascendancy. Hence the new age will be an age less masculine, and more permeated with the feminine ideals-or, to speak more exactly, will be an age in which the masculine and feminine elements of civilization will be more evenly balanced."
While women must develop their capacities and step forward to play an active role in solving the world's problems, the impact of their actions will be limited without the full cooperation of men. Women working together in unity and harmony have already achieved a great deal within the spheres of influence open to them. Now women must come together with men as equal partners. When men lend their full support to this process, welcoming women into all fields of human endeavor, valuing their contributions, and encouraging their participation, men and women together will help create the moral and psychological climate in which peace can emerge and an environmentally sustainable civilization can advance and flourish. The transformation required for true equality will undoubtedly be difficult for both men and women because both must re-evaluate what is familiar, what is routine. Blame must be relinquished because no individual can be faulted for having been shaped by historical, sociological forces. Guilt must be shed in favor of responsibility for growth. In the face of the profound challenges facing humanity, all are accountable for recognizing that the old model no longer works, and all will be answerable to future generations for their stewardship of human civilization and its relationship to the earth.
Change, however, is an evolutionary process requiring patience with one's self and others, loving education, and the passage of time. The transition will be eased when men realize that they will be unable to achieve their full potential as long as women are prevented from attaining theirs. Indeed, when men actively promote the principle of equality, women will no longer have to struggle for their rights. Gradually, both women and men will discard long- held unhealthy attitudes and progressively incorporate into their lives the values conducive to true unity.
In the opinion of the Bahá'í International Community, the emerging world civilization will be sustained by a common commitment to a new set of values, a shared understanding of the balance between rights and responsibilities, and the willingness on the part of each to serve the best interests of humanity as a whole. For Bahá'ís, the commitment to the emancipation of women is not a recent development nor is equality of the sexes a vague ideal. It is our conviction that the unification of the human race depends on the establishment of the equality of men and women. Humanity, the Bahá'í Writings explain, having passed through the stages of infancy, childhood, and turbulent adolescence, is now approaching maturity, a stage that will witness "the reconstruction and the demilitarization of the whole civilized world - a world organically unified in all the essential aspects of its life."
BIC Document #91-1108
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 12:08 PMI think lots of people belive in god fully and with conviction. I think the peace I often see in those with faith (whether god centredor not) is beautiful. Personally I don't have that myself, but I think it's lovely however a person is able to fit theirself (themself??) into the world.
Faith and violent, self centred ideologies are seperate things to me. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 12:12 PM
Of the good I can speak, but not of evil.
For what is evil but good tortured by its own hunger and thirst?
Verily when good is hungry it seeks food even in dark caves, and when it thirsts, it drinks even of dead waters.
You are good when you are one with yourself.
Yet when you are not one with yourself you are not evil.
For a divided house is not a den of thieves; it is only a divided house.
And a ship without rudder may wander aimlessly among perilous isles yet sink not to the bottom.
You are good when you strive to give of yourself.
Yet you are not evil when you seek gain for yourself.
For when you strive for gain you are but a root that clings to the earth and sucks at her breast.
Surely the fruit cannot say to the root, "Be like me, ripe and full
For to the fruit giving is a need, as receiving is a need to the root.
-Khalil Gibran -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 3:00 PM>>"Of the good I can speak, but not of evil. "<<
Your posts do not appear to be related to this topic. Please post your drivel on other threads; one you have started would be best, so that those of us who would like to ignore you can do it more easily- show us that love Chaz; you have bored us out of our minds and appear to have absolutely nothing to say; go away; we are not listening.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, November 9, 2006 - 12:33 PMGood is not evil and evil is not good. These are but labels. If you look at them as ideas they are still seperate.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 3:03 PM>>"I think lots of people belive in god fully and with conviction. I think the peace I often see in those with faith (whether god centredor not) is beautiful."<<
That peace you speak of appears to be a kind of dementia to me. I cannot think of anything less beautiful than a mind no longer able to think. It is scary. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 3:51 PMHatred and ignorance can be right frightening, but faith and lack of awareness are not inextricably linked. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 6:44 PM
Here’s food for thought
THE WORD "GOD" ; - An English version word derived from the German word "Gott", the word "Gott" means to the Germans ;- The supreme divine creator of the universe. An Alien word to the prophets in the "Islam's Koran", the Christian's Bible", the "Jewish Torah " and certainly the Ancient Nubians who were the master mind of holy practices before all of the above .
Before European stole history, the ancient Nubians were using the name "NU" as the name and the address to the Supreme Divine Creator of the universe. Since this modern civilization, learners with the title ;- Archeologist, Egyptologist, Anthropologist etc. humiliated and changed the Hieroglyphic's original translation of "NU-TEM, NU-TERU, TEM or NETERU to the English word ;- "God" or "gods".
AMEN or AMON ;- A typical Ancient Divinity "Nubian", who was once worshiped as the Redeemer of mankind and as the representative of the supreme divine creator of the universe ;- Numo, Nyumo or Noomo. Amon (Amen) name was and still being used after prayers by Catholics and Christians
Amon is a synonym of Amen,
A Greek word meaning ; sacred carving, priestly carving or holy carving.
Hieroglyphic is not a Nubian tongue, its meaning speaks for it self of what the Ancient Nubians were practicing, which was "Holy Practices". "The Greek did not write the Hieroglyphics, the Nubians wrote the Hieroglyphics". The same Hieroglyphic writings on the fishing canoes of the "La-Asafo" ( La ) of the Ga-Adangbes, Ghana.
The name "Isis" is another Greek version name of a Nubian Divinity woman who was the original "Divine of Fertility",
the name "Isis" is known to be pronounced as :- Essie, Ese, Esi, or Asi
Her spiritual powers and her resourceful determinations which established the spiritual role of her creation of the resurrection of her brother and husband "Osa", "Osei", "Asar", or "Sa" ; the Greek version "Osiris", earned her the Honor of Spiritual Excellency, believed to be among the closest being to the "SUPREME DIVINE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE"
*Mohammed, likewise, didn't deny Abraham's chosenness. He simply claimed that Abraham was a Muslim, and he traced Islam's descent through the Jewish Patriarch. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 9:39 PM>>"Here’s food for thought"<<
No, Chaz- all you offer is food for boredom and we are not hungry for this.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 9:41 PM>>"but faith and lack of awareness are not inextricably linked"<<
not inextricably linked- maybe
linked- yes
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 7:19 PMRene,
I think your post shows that you have done a considerable amount of thinking regarding the subject of religion and/or god/s. Consider that it is a definitive part of the human condition to believe in the Supernatural (be it a god, gods, goddess, superman, etc), and to NOT believe in this being or these beings is actually more unnatural than one might think. Afterall, where did the idea of god come from, and why are gods a part of every culture across the board? There is no more stupidity involved in religious belief than stupidity in any other beliefs or dispositions human beings possess.
~Katie -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 9:31 PM>>"There is no more stupidity involved in religious belief than stupidity in any other beliefs or dispositions human beings possess."<<
Remember Katie I did not say that anyone was stupid. I said no one can really believe in God because no one can really be that stupid. I think humans are all extremely intelligent and none of them really believe in things they not only cannot see, hear, smell, taste, or touch, but they also cannot even describe or imagine. Basically what they do is pretend to believe. When they are children the pretending is easy. This is what children do. When they grow up the pretending becomes harder, requires more effort, like the regular brainwashing events called "church services". If you pretend long enough, it almost seems real, but somewhere deep inside, you know it is pretend and you do not believe. Of course, they really want to believe, which makes the fact on their non-belief even harder to take; forcing them to hide and bury it, making them hate those who might uncover the truth and make them see it. Being an infidel is punishable by death in many Islamic countries. This is why, if you ever wondered why.
As far as your idea that "it is a definitive part of the human condition to believe in the Supernatural"- I would not describe it in this way. It would be better to say that throughout history when people could not understand how and why something happened, supernatural explanations have been offered because even when we don't have an answer, we like to give answers, rather than say "I don't know how that happened". As we have gained knowledge and understanding most of these supernatural explanations have given way to natural explanations. In a few areas we still do not have enough knowledge and understanding to explain things, so some still choose to offer up supernatural explanations which in reality simply amount to saying: we don't have an answer. The only "definitive part of the human condition" this represents is our unwillingness to say "I don't know" when we really do not know. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 3:10 PMRemember Katie I did not say that anyone was stupid. I said no one can really believe in God because no one can really be that stupid. I think humans are all extremely intelligent and none of them really believe in things they not only cannot see, hear, smell, taste, or touch, but they also cannot even describe or imagine. Basically what they do is pretend to believe.
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I think thats true for the vast majority of Christians.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 8:04 PMIn response to your first paragraph, Rene, I am amazed at your knowledge of the human condition. It far surpasses the knowledge of leading evolutionary biologists and psychologists. =)
As for your second paragraph, I think you have a good point. When things happen, as things do, and humans can't find a reasonable explanation in the natural realm, supernatural reasoning occurs. However, there are many other factors that evoke supernatural thought. Indeed, some say (and I would be more than willing to go through some of my books to find you reputable sources), it is part of human nature to believe in the supernatural. *shrugs*
Rene, and others, I'm not trying to impose my thoughts. Instead, I'd like to see this forum more approachable for those who believe in a god or gods. I think you'd agree, Rene, that if a believer in the Christian or Muslim God came to this tribe in search of discourse, they'd find the statement "no one can really believe in God because no one can really be that stupid" to be absolutely ignorant and disrespectful. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 9:58 PM>>"I think you'd agree, Rene, that if a believer in the Christian or Muslim God came to this tribe in search of discourse, they'd find the statement "no one can really believe in God because no one can really be that stupid" to be absolutely ignorant and disrespectful."<<
You again fail to notice; that I actually believe they are very intelligent. They are able to hold two totally contradictory things together in their minds: what they observe and what they imagine and never attempt to integrate the two. This is an impressive feat. I am not so smart, I have to have everything thing in my brain fit together in an integrated whole that makes sense. I have no abiltiy to completely ignore new relevant information- so I have to make this fit in to. Just look at Chaz here. He may be the smartest person on the planet. He appears to be able to hold hundreds, maybe even thousands of contradictory ideas in his brain at one time and it does not bother him a bit. He can speak with elegant passion for hours, without ever developing a coherent picture that makes sense. It is simply amazing. I suspect he may be a creature that has evolved far beyond a mere mortal man like me.
And of course these very intelligent people know there really is no God, but they are able to pretend to believe so well, they appear convincing, even to themselves. They all deserve acadamy awards.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 10:33 PM>>"In response to your first paragraph, Rene, I am amazed at your knowledge of the human condition. It far surpasses the knowledge of leading evolutionary biologists and psychologists."<<
You should be amazed Katie. Stay tuned. There may be even more amazing things to come...
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 9:14 PMI believe in virgin Mary -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 9:34 PM>>"I believe in virgin Mary"<<
... and I believe that you are a virgin
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 4:06 PMinteresting how the "crossroads of religion" tribe has become a place to berate others for their beliefs or lack of them. perhaps this community is demonstrating a parallell process with world confilict, just wearing different lables. how much more interesting it would be if people cared about and were interested in what others have to say, were curious about how they came to their conclusions, and could do that with respect and compassion. it is the conflict between personalities, regardless of the possition they are proclaiming that is "really boring" in all these threads. and the few thoughtful voices are quickly drown out by the addicted arguers. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 7:17 PMNo kidding.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Wed, October 25, 2006 - 6:43 PMwhat is god...?
simple...complex...family ...false...enemy...confusing...loving...inspired...true...fun...thirsty...comfortable? ......................
?
what are feelings?
simple...complex...family ...false...enemy...confusing...loving...inspired...true...fun...thirsty...comfortable? ......................
what is spirit?
what is you?
say spirit was the air...our air...say we have control over what we breath....say we can change the air... suppose we could change the way we feel...
something that hurts so much...makes us feel whitewashed...sunbleached....is it bad? is it god.... if we conquer it...does it matter?
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 2:30 AMI know the Most Great Being exists. I don't know how someone looks at the complexity of a DNA strand and has the idiotic idea to say, "Now, wasn't that a lucky chance it all came together like that." That strand is one "face" of the MGB. It wasn't luck, it was on purpose.
You ask, somewhere on this thread if someone can point out something that might not be if MGB wasn't involved? Isn't that sort of like randomly asking someone if they have stopped beating their spouse yet? If one believes in the MGB than there would be nothing. The proof is in the pudding.
For those who teach their children a story with one of the results being that they, themselves will have to tell their children that the central character doesn't actually exist however MGB does, they may be in for some hurt, as they were for the lies that children in China are waiting to eat their leftover dinners and that it hurts them more than it will hurt you...
Life is the face of the MGB. Free will to explore it or not, help others or not, create environments conducive to knowledge, art and health or not, this is another face of the MGB.
The polytheistic religions, the "multitude" gods, the many faces of one MGB, fractured so a society incapable of understanding the Most Great part of MGB would not be overwhelmed.
You feel the heat of the sun the MGB created and watch it float across the sky but you deny MGB made it because you weren't there to watch its birth. When you conceived, did you feel the spark of life ignite that was to become your child? Were you observant enough to *see* it at the moment it happened?
You want to see one of the faces of the MGB? Look in every face you see tomorrow, you will see the MGB but will you realize it? -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 6:55 AMI don't know how someone looks at the complexity of a DNA strand and has the idiotic idea to say, "Now, wasn't that a lucky chance it all came together like that."
Is your MGB less complex than a strand of DNA? If not then you would have to say: it is quite idiotic to believe that MGB came together by lucky chance, some MGB must have designed him, oh but then someone must have designed the MGB's designer...
Your arguement defeats itself. A more reasonable arguement is that complexity naturally arises from simpler elements, which would be true if we are talking about your MGB or a strand of DNA.
Some take the view that given a universe of nearly infinite size, a thing that has any chance at all, no matter how small is certain to occur somewhere and this explains how we have life. I do not actually concur with that view. I feel that the laws of our universe are such that complex forms, particularly life, naturally emerge from simpler elements and continue to evolve and become more complex over time. Rather, than being something rare, due to some unlikely combination of circumstances, I think if we ever get out there we will find that life is everywhere, as it is a natural consequence of universal laws. We will also, most likely find that many different kinds of complexity have evolved, similar to DNA based lifeforms, but different in ways that we cannot even imagine. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 1:51 PM<I think humans are all extremely intelligent and none of them really believe in things they not only cannot see, hear, smell, taste, or touch, but they also cannot even describe or imagine. Basically what they do is pretend to believe. >
Rene, from what I've observed through this thread you are so dead set against there being a higher power that you won't even listen to others who tell you, yes, I have felt God. I have seen the works he has done in my life. I have asked questions, and received answers. Just because you, personally, have not felt, seen, or heard God does not mean that others haven't. I know this, because God spoke to me once. Very clearly, in my spirit. He said "Pay attention." Just because you were not in my body, hearing what I heard, feeling as confused as I felt at first, and then accepting it for what it was...God speaking....does not mean that this is not completely 100% true, and not a delusion. Because I paid attention, and gave more weight to the situation, a whole host of situations came about that were necessary for my growth.
<A more reasonable arguement is that complexity naturally arises from simpler elements>
When you really take a look at the organisms on the planet, and how they are perfectly made and suited to their environments, and really study how the different organs are placed and what they can do...it becomes evident that there is a master plan, therefore, there is a master planner. Before you claim that you "know" the above to be true, you would first have to study the opposing side and, after much careful analysis, then determine to stand on the side of Darwin's evolutionism. But I'll bet money on the fact that you haven't...people who lie on one end of a spectrum attacking the people on the other end rarely have the wisdom to actually study the other's perspective. If you do decide that this is a logical route to take before you make up your mind about anything in life, here's a book to get you started (seriously): www.creationevidence.org/cemframes.html
You said something earlier that God would necessitate there being a God who made God, etc. The answer is, there's no way you or I or anyone can know for sure so it is foolish to be adament one way or the other. Our entire galaxy could be located inside a marble in the pocket of God whose parents just called him for dinner. That's a silly example, but we can't in this life determine all the mysteries of God. We will know all when we die. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 2:01 PMIf you click on the link above, scroll down the right side to "Book by Dr. Carl Baugh:
Why Do Men Believe Evolution...Against All Odds"
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 7:46 PM>>"you won't even listen to others who tell you, yes, I have felt God"<<
I am listening. I have no doubt the experience you describe is authentic. The only thing I question is your interpretation of the experience. What is the basis for your interpretation. What conditions or attributes of the experience make you point to "God". Can you even define and describe what God might be? Let us assume the experience is real and is also in some way related to "God", how would this experiece tell you anything about the nature of God? If you recieved a signal from an alien lifeform, or somehow tapped into a shared human subconcious would not he experience be identical. How can you be sure, you have not simply opened a door in your own mind that was closed to you?
>>"When you really take a look at the organisms on the planet, and how they are perfectly made and suited to their environments, and really study how the different organs are placed and what they can do"<<
The facts of biology do not support your contention. Biological organisms are loaded with flaws. I could do a better design job on a bad day. Organisms manage to fill different ecologic niches and are suited to them because natural selection eliminates those that are not very well suited. At the same time the twisted history of evolution and life on an unstable planet have left many recognizable marks on extant species that make a lot of sense if they are the product of evolution, but no sense at all if they were designed by an intelligent being.
Once again, I will point out that your argument that design requires a designer defeats itself, because unless you assume the designer is less complex than what he designed, he would also need to be designed by your logic. You say: "The answer is, there's no way you or I or anyone can know for sure so it is foolish to be adament one way or the other."
I agree we cannot know anything for sure, however if we apply logic and reason we can eliminate ideas, like God which make no sense and try to find sensible answers to our many questions.
>>"Before you claim that you "know" the above to be true, you would first have to study the opposing side and, after much careful analysis, then determine to stand on the side of Darwin's evolutionism."<<
I feel fairly certain that I am more knowledgeable about both sides of the evolution/creation debate than you are. Check out some of my posts on the Evolution/Creation tribe and see if you agree. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 8:41 PMI'm not going to counterpoint every argument because it's a waste of both our time, but I just wanted to let you know that Darwinian evolution theory is different from the concept of evolution: Creationists agree that we are made to evolve.
The organisms on and in your body are right now debating YOUR existence. ;-) -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Mon, October 30, 2006 - 6:49 AM>>"Darwinian evolution theory is different from the concept of evolution"<<
I am glad that you have grasped this fact. Darwin simply offered one mechanism by which the observed changes in organisms through time might have occurred. It is pretty clear that much if not all evolution can be explained by this mechanism. Other mechanisms may be involved. In any case, the processes involved are not so difficult to understand that there is any reason at all to suppose miracles are called for to explain them as creationists suggest.
>>"Creationists agree that we are made to evolve"<<
Creationists in general do not agree that we evolve. They attempt to discredit mountains of incontrovertible data about the observed changes in organisms through time, making the utterly absurd claim that the entire geologic record can be explained by one great flood.
>>'The organisms on and in your body are right now debating YOUR existence"<<
I think I heard that debate last night. One theory I had was that this was God talking, but on further reflection I came to understand that what I had heard did not fit that model. I will have to consider your bacterial theory a bit more, before deciding if this model fits the data. On first reflection, one would not think bacteria could communicate, but it may be possible. It is certainly much more plausible than the God model which basically makes no sense. Perhaps you should consider this more plausible possibilty to explain some of your experiences? -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Mon, October 30, 2006 - 7:31 AMRe: one would not think bacteria could communicate
Bacteria don't verbalize, but they do communicate extensively chemically. In particular, when one of them figures out a problem, it can break off chunks of DNA to share about the group so that every one gets up to speed quickly.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Mon, October 30, 2006 - 2:24 PM<Creationists in general do not agree that we evolve. They attempt to discredit mountains of incontrovertible data about the observed changes in organisms through time, making the utterly absurd claim that the entire geologic record can be explained by one great flood. >
That's not true. Creationists do not ignore the fact that we were made to evolve. By the way, people have studied the ark, recreated it, and have proved that it would indeed float at the size it was created and be able to survive waves rather steadily.
As much as you try to force people to open their minds to the fact that there is no God, you should open your mind to the fact that there is. There is a natural order to things, karma does exist, there are fundamental Truths to life, we are made to evolve into better people based on our choices...in your world everything is in chaos. Glad I'm not in it. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Mon, October 30, 2006 - 5:56 PMSchirin, you might enjoy this: www.infidels.org/library/m...intro.html
Sc: There is a natural order to things, karma does exist, there are fundamental Truths to life, we are made to evolve into better people based on our choices...
I don't see what any of that has to do with super natual deities.
Sc: in your world everything is in chaos.
Why do you think his world is in chaos? -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Mon, October 30, 2006 - 7:37 PMYou might enjoy this: home.earthlink.net/~ronrhod...ript.html -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 31, 2006 - 6:20 AMI would have enjoyed it more but it is very vague and lacking in actual textual references.
The fellow should really assume his readers are able to make up their own minds and supply the actual examples.
As it stands I can't agree with what he is claiming and I have encountered direct contradictions to several of his claims for xtian textual scholars who I find more interested in scholasticism and less interested in biblical inerrancy.
Did you actually read through the source I offered? I know it is quite long and at times a bit nit picky (the fellow is an ex priest), but it is very detailed and it offers the actual data instead of just its offhand conclutions of the data. What are you thoughts about the issues he raises?
Also, when it comes to trusting a source about inerrancy or other similar claims, ANY error is an issue. If we are just saying the bible is a work of man then certainly enormous effort has gone into it.
Do you have a source of the scope I gave you?
They do exist.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Mon, October 30, 2006 - 8:27 PM>>"That's not true. Creationists do not ignore the fact that we were made to evolve."<<
It appears then that creationists are rapidly evolving and you may be a new species. What do you imagine is the mechanism behind the evolution. Could it perhaps be caused by genetic drift, mutation, and natural selection of organisms most fit to their envrionment? This mechanism should take a tad longer than 6000 years to produce the variation we see on planet Earth. Apparently you are suggesting there is a mechanism that acts faster. What might it be? Do you have any ideas? If the mechanism is able to act quickly would this not actually support the idea of common descent and evolution of life through Earth's history? -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Mon, October 30, 2006 - 11:02 PMI'm going to buy a bumper sticker: We were CREATED to EVOLVE -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 31, 2006 - 6:23 AMSc: We were CREATED to EVOLVE
When you say this when do you see the creation of us happening and when do you see the evolution happening?
If you are holding the deist position that all the creation part ends at the big bang and that the natural forces have held sway ever since, then really there isn't much disagreement outside of how each side reacts to the sound of the other's position. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 31, 2006 - 11:09 AMThe universe a big empty place before the big bang, therefore, something was created from nothing, therefore has to be a cause before the effect (you can't tell me there can be an effect without a cause, it's original law). Obviously, it all worked in such great and mysterious way to allow life to flourish on this particular planet. The odds of it happening without purpose, without design, is rediculously tiny. When a baby is conceived, it is a lump of flesh with the makings of a person, but something has to happen for an entirely new soul to enter into it and give it life. Do you know the precise moment and exactly how that happens? We are God-breathed into that tiny bundle of atoms and neurons. God creates people every day. He also created us to evolve through our experiences, our gifts which each of us were granted, and our ability to be like him, to create. He allows us to suffer, so we learn against adversity. If we never were allowed to suffer, we would surely not evolve. With each generation, the choices we make, the things that we create, the genes that are passed on, allow us to evolve further and further. -
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 31, 2006 - 11:10 AMWhoops, should have spell checked the first part, but I'm sure you can figure it out.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 31, 2006 - 12:32 PMSc: The universe a big empty place before the big bang, therefore, something was created from nothing, therefore has to be a cause before the effect (you can't tell me there can be an effect without a cause, it's original law).
Actually you are mistaken in a couple regards here.
The universe was extremely dense and hot in the beginning.
It was not bigger or emptier than it is now.
It was already there, as a singularity. It just wasn't "unfolded."
Nothing was created. Matter and energy are conserved, neither created nor destroyed.
You could maybe say it was started.
Sc: therefore has to be a cause before the effect (you can't tell me there can be an effect without a cause, it's original law).
There are two problems here. First, if you insist that a cause caused the universe I see no reason not to have a cause cause your god. He is not ultimate in any way. Just another cog in the wheel and we are no closer to any actual beginning.
Second, we know know not everything has a cause. Quantum events, for example, can be causeless.
You may have to face the fact that 3000 years ago jewish sheep herders didn't know that much about cosmology.
Sc: Obviously, it all worked in such great and mysterious way to allow life to flourish on this particular planet.
Not too mysterious any more.
Sc: The odds of it happening without purpose, without design, is rediculously tiny.
This is a misconception. Odds only apply to events in the furture. The odds of it having happened are 1 because it did in fact happen.
Sc: When a baby is conceived, it is a lump of flesh with the makings of a person, but something has to happen for an entirely new soul to enter into it and give it life. Do you know the precise moment and exactly how that happens?
Never. No soul. Anatman.
When a baby is conceived it is not a lump of flesh, it is a single cell.
As for when life begins. It begins about 3.5 billion years ago and it has been continuous ever since. At no point from mother/father to egg to adult to mother/father is there a break in the living of the DNA as it evolves new forms for itself.
Sc: We are ...
I see no reason to blame god for what we obviously are doing ourselves. Have a bit of personal responcibility there.
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Re: Does anyone really believe in God?
Tue, October 31, 2006 - 10:10 PM>>"With each generation, the choices we make, the things that we create, the genes that are passed on, allow us to evolve further and further."<<
I really like your idea here. The only question I might ask is, if there is a God involved in all this, why did he not just make things the way he wanted them in the first place?
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