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Please make a concise list of everything you can think of thats is wrong with the modern
christian paradigm.
christian paradigm.
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Wed, November 8, 2006 - 7:33 AMI'm 35, and have an expected life span of 100 years. I just don't have that kind of time left. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Wed, November 8, 2006 - 1:38 PMlol. Okay, howzabout an abreviated list? -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Wed, November 8, 2006 - 1:47 PM1. Christianity is by definition satanic, since satan is the invention of roman catholicism.
2. Christianity is by definition a war cult, since yahweh is a god of wrath who authorizes genocide.
3. Christianity is by definition a death cult, since it is based around the supposition of rightness to kill. This is played out repeatedly in all forms; the religion is invariably used as rationalizations for murder, genocide, slavery, capital punishment, and etc.
4. Anti -Female
5. Anti Environmental
6. Ant-intellectual
7. Anti Science
8. Christianity is really a mental cage created to deprive people of genuine spiritual experiences so that spirituality can then be sold back to peasants who are thus controlled psychologically. Christianity is christs worst nightmare; the money changers married to the temple. It exists to fleece people of their money, their genuine spiritual connectivity, and their own capacity for original or creative thought.
8.1 Atheism, Agnosticism, Satanism, and Anarchism are all rebellious movements that take the creation of dissassociation from god and the requisite need for religious "belief"
and turn it inside out; by denying belief, they deny thus god, and are completely left out in the cold by their own reasoning. Their cheap rebellion is Christianity minus spirituality.
9. The bible is a patent rip off and a politically motivated con artists propaganda masterpeice, which was cobbled together by cherry picking the evidence of better than ten times the presented original material, and an obvious ripoff of the tanakh.
10. Christian logic is circular and two dimensional
11. Christians appear to worship ignorance... "ignorance is strength"... -
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Unsu...
Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Wed, November 8, 2006 - 1:55 PM1. Christianity relies exclusively on a book written by people who were colorful at best, most likely delusional, and corrupt at worst.
2. The levels of bureacracy are so intense in most christian religions, that any change takes decades, far slower than even governmental change.
3. Christianity assumes that all people will meekly fall into line given the right amount of threats.
4. Many christian religions have invested so much into claims of the bible that have been proven false, that it totters precariously on the edge of losing any credibility whatsoever, and has been forced to hedge it's answers in ways that most 11 year olds can detect. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Thu, November 23, 2006 - 3:51 PM
By worshiping Christ's suffering in our name, to release us of our sins"
commonly known as the death and resurrection, Christian's are
worshiping, romaniticinzing and rationalizing suffering,
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Unsu...
Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Fri, November 24, 2006 - 7:56 AMbut of course, how else to convince the poor and downtrodden not to revolt? -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 23, 2007 - 4:53 PMthis thread was not concluded, and the poiint of it was missed by the trolls. They don't want to create a single
larger and more lucid exploration of christianities faults because that would deprive them of the fun. They don't
have the capacity to work via logic in any case; they argue via mockery and so their arguments are relegated to the
trash bin of history.
What are the main problems with the christian paradigm?
why can't we get a serious discussion of this rather than a gazillion lamer fundie atheist troll threads whining
about christianity? -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Fri, January 26, 2007 - 1:21 PM>> What are the main problems with the christian paradigm? <<
One of the key logical flaws of Christianity was pointed out by it's earliest critics: Why did your "God" wait so long to "send down" Jesus? There has never been an answer to this. I highly recommend the book "The Christians as the Romans Saw Them" by Christian scholar Robert L. Wilken, which actually helps to explain this criticism (Wilken's is a pretty honest scholar despite being a Christian). Extensive excerpts from the book can be found at this feminist website: www.pinn.net/~sunshine/b...xtian1.html. Check out their whole website. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Fri, January 26, 2007 - 6:46 PMne of the key logical flaws of Christianity was pointed out by it's earliest critics: Why did your "God" wait so long to "send down" Jesus? There has never been an answer to this.
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i could think of one.
but then, i'm not a christian apologist.
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I highly recommend the book "The Christians as the Romans Saw Them" by Christian scholar Robert L. Wilken, which actually helps to explain this criticism (Wilken's is a pretty honest scholar despite being a Christian). Extensive excerpts from the book can be found at this feminist website: www.pinn.net/~sunshine/b...xtian1.html. Check out their whole website.
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thanks, thats a kewl connnexxion.
reply to this post
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 23, 2007 - 5:29 PMChristianity rejoices, celebrates, condones, and supports "purification of humanity." Its success depends entirely upon the entire world accepting it and following it - no exceptions.
No matter what the desired result is, be it only white-skinned blue-eyed blonde-haired people, only god-fearing Jesus-loving blind sheep, or only peace-loving science-supporting anti-religionists, humanity purification is a BAD IDEA. It will never work, because no one will ever agree on what should be the desired result, and no matter what it is, it requires genocide in some way, shape or form to exist. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Fri, January 26, 2007 - 1:21 PMpinky; genocide and borg style assimilation process and slavery all result from that base assumption.
i like what you have to say but wish to go deeper. How did the decay process happen where an intentional
good was tranformed into that bad?
its not enough just to call christianity names. We need to talk about the cause and effect of natural laws
as they play out in evolutionary processes to select an evil religion for the one we have. We need to talk
about what went wrong and how it went that way. That is all about seeing the process. Its about understanding
that even the purest good and most particularly the purest good is what can fuel evil. How did the roman
empire do it and what were they thinking? How did and why did they fake being the apostles and ghost write
the gospels? And why were the apocrypha disincluded?
its a deep question with deep answers.
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Fri, January 26, 2007 - 2:24 PM>> its not enough just to call christianity names <<
But it is an excellent starting point. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Fri, January 26, 2007 - 6:48 PM> its not enough just to call christianity names <<
But it is an excellent starting point.
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yes. no. Adult level thinking about the problems doesn't happen until we let go of the adolescent level.
sometimes we have to go through the adolescent level to get it out of our system. The problems arise when
people stay stuck in the adolescent level permanently. They convince nobody but themselves that way.
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Fri, January 26, 2007 - 6:40 PMI've been thinking more on this lately, and while I'm not sure if I can yet answer any of your new questions, Prometheus, I do think I know how it started.
Perhaps Christianity was an attempt to create world peace. An undoubtedly desirable and honorable, but also difficult, goal. IF the entire world WERE to believe in one thing, be it Christianity or otherwise, it WOULD unite everyone in the world in some way. That would be an excellent first step to world peace, but still far from it. Perhaps it was an attempt to unite everyone in a way that everyone would have the same morals, the same desires, the same view of the world, etc., which is a wonderful idea, and would certainly make the world an easier place to live if it were true, but beliefs are not something you can force. Beliefs, while you can "choose" them because there are many to choose from, you can't just say, "I think I'm going to be Christian today," and really be able to pull it off. You have to feel good about something to believe in it; it has to make sense to you before you can put faith in it, and what does and doesn't make sense is something that is purely subjective to each individual - that's why we have so many different religious viewpoints in the first place.
It was a nice idea, but much too "simple" a solution for such a complicated goal.
And many of us fail to understand, we already DO have at least one thing in common - we are all human. That, in itself, should merit that every human deserves the same respect as the next. Individuals can certainly manipulate others' levels of respect for them through their actions, but this is something that would take place after two people get to know each other. From the get go, everyone should be worthy of as much respect as anyone else, until they prove otherwise. You know - innocent until proven guilty.
How did it go wrong? We did it - humans did it. We tend to screw up anything we get our hands on. I don't know how we do it, but we're damn good at it. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Fri, January 26, 2007 - 6:52 PMI've been thinking more on this lately, and while I'm not sure if I can yet answer any of your new questions, Prometheus, I do think I know how it started.
Perhaps Christianity was an attempt to create world peace.
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pan>
that is what yeshua intended.
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An undoubtedly desirable and honorable, but also difficult, goal. IF the entire world WERE to believe in one thing, be it Christianity or otherwise, it WOULD unite everyone in the world in some way. That would be an excellent first step to world peace, but still far from it. Perhaps it was an attempt to unite everyone in a way that everyone would have the same morals, the same desires, the same view of the world, etc., which is a wonderful idea, and would certainly make the world an easier place to live if it were true, but beliefs are not something you can force. Beliefs, while you can "choose" them because there are many to choose from, you can't just say, "I think I'm going to be Christian today," and really be able to pull it off. You have to feel good about something to believe in it; it has to make sense to you before you can put faith in it, and what does and doesn't make sense is something that is purely subjective to each individual -
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originally, christianity was a very scientific approach that did not require belief because it provided an accurate means to obtain real
results. beliefs come into this late in the game; beliefs are a way to keep people from having a genuine spiritual experience.
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that's why we have so many different religious viewpoints in the first place.
It was a nice idea, but much too "simple" a solution for such a complicated goal.
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in defense of yeshua, i think if they had implemented what he actually preached, we would be in a very different place.
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And many of us fail to understand, we already DO have at least one thing in common - we are all human. That, in itself, should merit that every human deserves the same respect as the next. Individuals can certainly manipulate others' levels of respect for them through their actions, but this is something that would take place after two people get to know each other. From the get go, everyone should be worthy of as much respect as anyone else, until they prove otherwise. You know - innocent until proven guilty.
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pan> thats a difficult problem in the modern era. Dishing out what others do is an unsavory task.
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How did it go wrong? We did it - humans did it. We tend to screw up anything we get our hands on. I don't know how we do it, but we're damn good at it.
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I think it was pretty much greed and politics, simple stuff. That and fear.
the romans screwed everything up pretty much on purpose.
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 23, 2007 - 6:21 PMShame on all of you.....
This isnt a discussion at all......merely a place to find fault.
We do not worship ignorance....that was a tool used by the corrupt.
Knowledge is power, no matter what system you follow.
Any questions placed here in a respectful manner i will be more than happy to respond to. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Fri, January 26, 2007 - 1:17 PMShame on all of you.....
This isnt a discussion at all......merely a place to find fault.
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notice the other thread.
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We do not worship ignorance....that was a tool used by the corrupt.
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nobody said you worship ignorance. however, in order to continue to worship as you do, you have to
be ignorant. This is so because knowledge rationally demonstrates real flaws with the christian paradigm.
Christianity does not have and cannot provide a rational ethics system. Sociology and Psychology can.
Christianity is a paradigm thats rotten to its core; but we have to look at whats good and whats bad about
it in equal light and we need to be balanced and fair in our analysis.
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Knowledge is power, no matter what system you follow.
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and due to the problem of paradigm decay, optimal knowledge is aquired by aquiring multiple paradigms and
using them as a skeptic to filter down each other until you arrive at an eclectic mix of the best of all of it.
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Any questions placed here in a respectful manner i will be more than happy to respond to.
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we aren't here to ask any question other than whats wrong with the christian paradigm? How does it fail?
How does it fail to create a viable sociology? A viable ethos? A viable legal system? A viable description of sovereignty?
How does christianity get itsefl twisted into the knot that transforms it into a death cult and war cult and a brain dead
zombie cult of fascism and fear and satanism? How does that happen?
If you can answer that question or those questions, then by all means do so. If you are here to defend christianity, my suggestion is that
you confine your efforts for the most part to the other thread which is to talk about whats good about christianity.
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 30, 2007 - 11:42 PM<any questions placed here in a respectful manner i will be more than happy to respond to>
why do priests tell children that jesus was born on December 25 when it doesn't say anywhere in the bible that he was? -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 30, 2007 - 11:47 PMjamie; the yeshua ben yeoseph story was mixed liberally with the paganism of the romans. having a birthday on either
december 25-31 or may 1 or so is the first qualifier to make one eligible for god hood under those pagan systems.
Christs alleged birthday is really DionYSIUSes birthday, conveniently transferred over in the creation of the christ myth.
thats an interesting question, but doesn't actually fall in the perview of the topic at hand.
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 23, 2007 - 8:28 PMI hate to spoil your fun, but this is a non-productive exercise. Instead of looking for what is wrong with modern Christian paradigm, it might be more productive to determine what, if anything is good or right about it. Those things you might want to adopt and nurture, then you can forget all the rest of it. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Fri, January 26, 2007 - 1:10 PMah, well, rene thats why theres the other thread. This thread and the other thread are here to generate a responsible
exploration of both sides of the issue. With some real depth and some real strength on each side. Knowing
whats good about a religion is tantamount to knowing the differences with whats wrong or bad about it; its a two
sided problem. Sifting the good from the bad is determining the good and the bad. This thread serves the purpose
of the other thread and gives atheist fundies their chance to vent it all to the end of it.
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Sat, January 27, 2007 - 4:53 AMThey believe in god.
Simple, succinct. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Sat, January 27, 2007 - 10:46 PMagain, troll, that doesn't stand as a rational argument in formal logic.
we are looking for systemic failures internal to the system which created a situation in which it could not reach
its spiritual objectives.
Beleif or disbeleif has no truth value. The only rational questions are "what are the laws of nature???"; not
wether or not there is a god.
the failure or sucess of a paradigm hinges on its flow inside of social causality and sociological law.
A fatal flaw in a paradigm means that an idea in that paradigm has a tumble effect in social causality that
is entropic.
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Sat, January 27, 2007 - 10:47 PMand beleif or disbeleif is itself not entropic.
behaviors which stem from beleifs and which are justified by belief systems are.
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Sun, January 28, 2007 - 3:15 AMWell there are no spiritual objectives. So if you want to strip it right back to the bare bones that goal is another flaw.
An unattainable goal with no confirmable objectives or truths will naturally schism as seperate sub groups come to different 'truths' and understandings and will lead to conflict.
This is true of almost any unevidenced belief system though, not specific to Christianity and can be expressed in precisely the way I did before.
The problem is they believe in god. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Mon, January 29, 2007 - 8:50 PMWell there are no spiritual objectives. So if you want to strip it right back to the bare bones that goal is another flaw.
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Thats amazing on topic. They have no spiritual objectives, just the continuation of a steady state hold on the system bottleneck.
But i suppose that would be odd to tell them, because they are programmed to chase their tails and they think of those as objectives.
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An unattainable goal with no confirmable objectives or truths will naturally schism as seperate sub groups come to different 'truths' and understandings and will lead to conflict.
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Sure, they came up with the stuff in a random pack psychology sort of control freak petri dish sort of way.
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This is true of almost any unevidenced belief system though, not specific to Christianity and can be expressed in precisely the way I did before.
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Which is why your argument is a dead end. Science is no better. You really think that quantum mechanics is anything less than a few thousand facts and a few million guesses?
Everybody is jockieying for THEIR version, and nobody really knows which one is right.
All ANYBODY HAS is beleif. So there it is. Now you can believe in shit for good, bad, or better reasons. You like to think you have better
reasons and so does everybody else.
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The problem is they believe in god.
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no, the problem is they believe in an EVIL god.
If they beleived in a GOOD god, it wouldn't be BAD just STUPID. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 30, 2007 - 4:05 PMNo, the problem is they believe in god, and that god doesn't exist, thereby leaving them to their own devices and conjectures.
As to Quantum theory, it is a relatively young field of study and very counterintuitive. It is still being felt out. However, as science it will be refined through confirmable observation, testable theory, confirmable prediction and will slowly become condified and understood in a way religion cannot do. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 30, 2007 - 4:18 PMNo, the problem is they believe in god, and that god doesn't exist,
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according to you, famously. but you can't proove it and all you have is your faith to counter theirs. Which means
your argument is crap and won't stand the test of being useful in any forum that runs on logic instead of arrogant
ignorant noise.
again, quit posting to my threads, you are a moron taking my threads off topic with stupid drivel.
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thereby leaving them to their own devices and conjectures.
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Irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelvant.
Probably true, but NOT ARGUABLE VIA FORMAL LOGIC.
its a DEAD END ARGUMENT. How many times do i have to explain it to you?
post more trash to my thread, and i'll start making new threads just to discard your noise.
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As to Quantum theory, it is a relatively young field of study and very counterintuitive. It is still being felt out. However, as science it will be refined through confirmable observation, testable theory, confirmable prediction and will slowly become condified and understood in a way religion cannot do.
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yes, thats certainly true. However, due to the problem of the distal and proximal stimulus and subjective versus objective reality,
all they can have is belief in things for marginally better reasons.
again, irrelevant. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 30, 2007 - 4:59 PMYou can prove god, specifically the Abrahamic god, to be both logically impossible and to not exist by none of its alleged deeds being accomplished by it. Belief with evidence is not faith.
Stop making threads that are stupid drive, like tends to attract like. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 30, 2007 - 11:08 PMdoes somebody hear an asshat cricket? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Wed, January 31, 2007 - 3:26 AMYep, right at the start of the thread.
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Sun, January 28, 2007 - 1:02 PM>>"Please make a concise list of everything you can think of thats is wrong with the modern
christian paradigm."<<
They accept as truth a series of conjectures and suppositions for which they have no discernible evidence. This is the fundamental flaw of all religious paradigms. If everyone simply recognized and acted as if their particular paradigm was simply a series of unsupported conjectures and suppositions, then everyone could have a merry conversation about which one might correspond more closely to reality and after a few beers we could all go home and forget about these ideas because they really have no merit. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Mon, January 29, 2007 - 8:56 PM>>"Please make a concise list of everything you can think of thats is wrong with the modern
christian paradigm."<<
They accept as truth a series of conjectures and suppositions for which they have no discernible evidence.
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their beleifs are based on non rational and non proovable and easilly falsifiable axioms.
So, lets get to each axiom individually, and show specifically why those axioms are not justifiable, why they are assumptive,
or why they are falsifiable.
You can't fault "belief" itself, because thats the paradox of the distal and proximal stimulus.
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This is the fundamental flaw of all religious paradigms.
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The fundamental flaw of any given paradigm is to get its ass reified. A map is not the territory. If everybody rememebered lucidly that
all they have is old maps, they would do much better in the actual territory.
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If everyone simply recognized and acted as if their particular paradigm was simply a series of unsupported conjectures and suppositions, then everyone could have a merry conversation about which one might correspond more closely to reality and after a few beers we could all go home and forget about these ideas because they really have no merit.
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thats mostly true until you get somebody who knows what they are talking about.
like me for instance.
the ideas i am sharing with you ahve more than merit; they are the way out of the social cage;
i am the awakener if you can be lucid enough to see the torch.
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 30, 2007 - 11:31 PMThis obviously goes alongside my contribution to the "1001 Gems of..." thread:
One of Christianity's fatal flaws is that it is in denial of its own inability to maintain a monolithic self-awareness. With nearly 35,000 Christian denoms worldwide, there hardly consensus among Christians within the borders of its own broad camp.
Realizing [G]od concepts cannot be confined or so narrowly defined would be key to Christians become better dialogue partners with the rest of the world.
I think this suggestion at least partly resonates with other responses and apolgize if it isn't a unique contribution.
MC -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 30, 2007 - 11:40 PMi apreciate that paradox immensely and have noticed it myself. Homegeny is both a blessing and a curse;
and 1001 denominations is a good thing in some senses and a symptom of people rebelling against
a bad system on the other.
What do you think it would take to unite a significant batch of christian factions back into a more sensible
version of the paradigm?
thanks so much for your contribution, its quite on topic.
:)
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 30, 2007 - 11:38 PMThe penal-substition soteriological paradigm + the Protestant development of the doctrine of total depravity = dysfunction, dysfunction, dysfunction!
Hence, the "I'm not perfect - just forgiven" mantra that allows many of us to forgive ourselves why chastising others for not accepting the "blood of Jesus".
MC -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, January 30, 2007 - 11:44 PMHence, the "I'm not perfect - just forgiven" mantra that allows many of us to forgive ourselves why chastising others for not accepting the "blood of Jesus".
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thats an awesome and deep example of cognitive dissonance; the application of systemic double standard,
the essential permission given to self to not conform to the absolutes; and then a dynamic judgement of others
who fail to do so. This is a core dogma problem because it feeds into ethnocentrism and its part of what drives
that fractionating phenomenon you are pointing to; self righteous moral superiority without sensible cause
creates a situation where all sorts of people end up vying for the ladder top.
i wish i had more time to mull this over tonight. Thanks for taking this thread on a meaningful turn.
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Wed, January 31, 2007 - 9:36 AMFor the most part, Christian Apologetics is horribly flawed - particularly in the traditional and current Evangelical context.
Why do I think this?
1. It generally seeks to engage with Modernity (differentiating here from post-modernity) but if we were to honestly play by Modernist rules, we cannot overcome key critical hurdle #1: To rationally and emperically prove the existence of a god. I am not saying I do not believe in a God. But Christian need to admit that the monolith of science in Modernity does not accept the mystical, intuitive and sensing as proof and such an approach will argumentatively fail again and again.
2. It is generally informed by a soteriological paradigm that is highly forensic, individualistic and based on proclamation/creed over any truly substantial redemption of the human condition. That just trips me out. Hypothetically I can live in abject poverty and in a shithole but I ought to be happy because some rich televangelist told I am saved if I verbally accept Jesus as my savior. I'll take donations and food any day - and yes...I'd endure church for free food.
3. it is often flawed by ethnocentrism and capitalist mindset while trying to engage in other cultures - and often not even aware of the hegemonic approach that emerges as a result.
MC
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Wed, January 31, 2007 - 1:01 PMgood ones mc.
the fact of he church creating a sort of concept of "good suffering" and "good poverty" in reality only so that
the victims can be brainwashed into staying poor and not bucking the system is a very mean proof that christianity
as a system is just a tool to control people.
A lot of christians dialoguing with atheists might get the impression that logic or modern intellectualism puts atheists
ahead. Actually this is not true. Formal logic says that logic can't be used to proove or disproove the existence of
God. It can be used to proove the veracity of much more specific dogmatic concepts and etc, but really an atheist is
in exactly the same boat the christians are; logic views both as beleif systems without possible proofs.
Christianity could learn from the concept of logic, and attempt to build a cogent system instead of a spagetti code
network of loosely associated and intersupporting ideas. Christian apologists generally fail to realize that logic is the
death of any christian paradigm existing, but, could potentially rebirth the paradigm as something far more useful to
humanity.
The flaw here is that christian apologists aren't able to think on the fly, make new connections, or to play loosely with their
conceptual architectures. The rigidity of those structures makes them both brittle and weak. Yet, a reconstructionist effort
aligned with the essenes could easilly generate a hyper rational system if people could invest the energy into thinking it through. -
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Re: 1001 fatal flaws of Christianity
Tue, July 3, 2007 - 9:22 PMso, i ask you all again, esp you grim; provide the list.
a nice list of threads would be nice even.
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