Origin of Islam: Allah, the Moon God, Slavery, and other Islamic

topic posted Thu, November 5, 2009 - 3:27 PM by  Metaphysics

The Prophet Muhammad is a fictional character, whose prophetic life was based on that of Shaikh Al' Akbar Muhiyuddin Ibn Al' Ali a.k.a. Ibn Al' Arabi, alias Muhammed. His life was made into a prophet by his followers in the mid-thirteenth century. Islam as well as the Qu'ran was constructed by Jewish, Christian and White Arab scholars in the late 19th century.

WHITE Arabs came into Africa conquering in the name of Allah and teaching African people evil, they had been worshipping devils and demons for thousands of years, just like the European Christian did! Chrisitianity, Judaism, and Islam are female-hating, slave-tolerating religions

A lot of Muslims are good when it comes to exposing the pagan origins of Christianity and the "Jesus Christ" story as it relates to the worship of ancient sun gods. But what about Islam? Do you honestly think your religion is not derived from the ancient mythos of the Semites? You better think again! You better learn about that ancient lunar cult in Arabia!

"Islam also owes the term "Allah" to the heathen Arabs. There's evidence that it entered into numerous personal names in Northern Arabia and among the Nabatians.
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SF Bay Area

  • It was these Arabs, under the guise of Islam, who first enslaved the African, as well as defiled the ancient teachings and monuments in Lower and Upper Egypt, as well as other parts of East Africa, to build mosques and other buildings in the name of Islam.

    Elijah Muhammad wasn't lying when he said that Islam is as Old as the Sun, Moon and Stars (of which the esoteric significance ought to be well known to the serious practitioner of Sufi/Tasawuf).

    Pre-Islamic Arabia's religion was one of superstition. Belief in jinns (genies), curse casting, magic stones, totems was the norm - and it was against this background that Allah arose. Although the Quran is claimed to be a heavenly writing with no earthly source, evidence of these very sorts of cultural influence is found in such places as Suras 55, 72, 113 and 114.

    Animism, the belief that spirits inhabit rocks, trees and other elements was also very commonplace. Some of these stones were venerated and used as a focal point for the worship of a particular tribal god. No surprise, Muhammad's family had just such a stone for their own tribe - a black stone, in fact, that they kept at the Kabah (where the tribal idols were set up). The pagan rites of bowing toward Mecca, making a pilgrimage to the Kabah, running around it seven times, kissing it, then running to the river to throw stones at the devil all found there way into Islamic practice.

    The final piece of the puzzle was in found in the religion of the Sabeans, an astral religion that worshipped the moon god and planned their religious rites around the lunar calendar. One such rite was fasting from crescent moon to crescent moon, a practice which would also be adopted by Muhammad.

    If these things were not present before Muhammad received them from Allah (who himself is the moon god of Muhammad's tribe), why did Muhammad not have to explain what those words meant in the Quran? How would people have known who Allah was? ( or: what a jinn was? what the Kabah was? what the word Islam meant? etc.).

    Even the word "Islam" which many believe to mean "submission" was not an original word. In Arabic it was a secular term that denoted the strength and bravery of a desert warrior (a definition that accurately reflects the war-like tribes that founded Islam with bloodshed).

    The Moon God

    "Allah" is from the compound Arabic word "al-ilah" or in english "the god". Allah was known before Muhammad's time without a doubt. His name has been found in pre-islamic writings and other archeological finds. At the Kabah in Mecca over 350 gods were worshipped, but it was built especially for the chief deity - the moon god. Allah was the personal title of the moon god. Allah was married to the sun goddess. They produced three daughters, whose worship Muhammad would later make the mistake of condoning. The crescent moon symbol of Arabia came from this god.

    So, Allah - far from being the revealed God of the Bible as Muhammad would have us believe - is nothing more than an amplified pagan idol. Muhammad did not re-make the pagan god, he simply removed the lower deities from the rites of worship. That is why he never had to explain who Allah was. By definition, an idol converted in the 7th century into a new god cannot be the sama God revealed thousands of years earlier to Biblical prophets!

    • Crescent Moon, Planet Venus, and the Muslim Religion;

      Their justification was/is to fight for and against Imperialism of the Christians,

      "ALL Abrahamic Religions are plagiarized invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Imperialism."

      The Arabs with Islam (Muslims) Jews with Judaism, and Christians with Christ

      “Islam and Mohammed are inventions for Arab to fight for and against Imperialism."

      “Islam is an invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Arab Imperialism (or at least to fight off the Christians).

      The Conquest is the reason and explanation for Islam, not the other way around.”

      "the life of Mohammed in Mecca and Medina is a myth, base on fiction."

      Ma'at (kmt) was the first and most developed system of morality and ethics in the ancient world for over 6000 years in Ancient Kmt

      (what became Egypt after the invasions).

      Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the religions of the enslavers of African people, the occupiers of African land, and the destroyers of African civilization. Semites plagiarized the Torah hundreds of years after the so called Moses died, with decades of revisions. Westerns wrote their Bible in Rome after the Nicaea Conference hundreds of years after they said Jesus died and rose from the dead; they adapted the "old testament" from the ethiopians and Kemet.

      All three religions were used as justifications to invade, pillage, conquer and destroy indigenous Black civilization and people, running them off their land, for thousands of years culminating with the holocaust of Black enslavement globally and the seizing of the entire continent of Africa for what are now Arabs, Jews, and Europeans.

      • History of pre-lslamic Arabia.

        The kingdoms of South Arabia, known to have flourished from the 1st millennium Bc, included the kingdoms of Ma'in, Saba, Qatabdn, Awsdn, Hadramawt, and Himyar. With a decline in economic fortunes after the 1st century BC because of changes of Greco-Roman trade routes to India, the centre of population and cultural influence shifted northward from the Yemen to the Hejaz, which was ruled in the early Christian centuries by Ethiopia.

        Though the religion of South Arabia was polytheistic, the monotheistic communities of Jews and Christians in the Hejaz gained in influence. The break of the Ma'rib Dam in the Yemen (C. AD 575), which brought about the collapse of irrigation in the area, was an event which later Islamic tradition saw as dramatizing the eclipse of ancient South Arabian culture.

        In the official cults of the South Arabian kingdoms, the devotees venerated most highly a triad of deities that were astral in character: the moon god, the sun goddess, and the god equated with the planet Venus.

        Each of these deities bore a variety of names, depending on the region, or on a particular attribute of the divinity. Chief among the triad was the moon god, who was the protector of the principal cities. The people of the various kingdoms and areas referred to themselves as his offspring, each under a different name: the Sabaeans were the children of Ilumquh ("God Is Power"), the Minaeans the children of Wadd ("Love"), the Qatabdnians the children of 'Amm ("Uncle"), and the people of Hadramawt the offspring of Sin (the name of the moon god in ancient Babylonia).

        In each region other names of the moon god appear, derived from aspects of the lunar cycle or other attributes. Next among the triad was Venus, the morning and evening star, named 'Athtar, who also had a variety of attributes. Third was the sun goddess, whose principal name, Shams, was common to the various kingdoms, like 'Athtar, but whose paired epithets, describing contrasting aspects, varied locally.

        Among the peoples around the northern perimeter of Arabia, "god," in the most generic sense, was El, or in a longer form of the same name, Ilah. His veneration at a very early stage is attested by his appearance in theophoric names, that is, personal names of which one element is a divine name (the biblical name Gabriel is an example). Among nomadic tribes in particular, a residual sense of El as being the god par excellence remained until the time of Islam.

        • The life of Mohammed in Mecca and Medina is a myth, a "baseless fiction.


          The dates given for Mohammed's life are 570-632 AD. Ibn Ishaq was born about 717 and died in 767. He thus wrote his biography well over 100 years after Mohammed lived, precluding his gaining any information from eyewitnesses to the Sira as they would have all died themselves in the intervening years.

          However, no copies exist of Ibn Ishaq's work. We know of it only through quotations of it in the History of al-Tabari, who lived over two hundred years after Ibn Ishaq (al-Tabari died in 992). Thus the earliest biography of Mohammed of which copies still exist was written some 350 years after Mohammed lived.


          Mecca is located in the Hejaz region of what is today Saudi Arabia. It is portrayed by traditional belief as a wealthy trading center, full of merchants trading goods by caravan from Yemen in the south and Syria and the Byzantium empire in the north. Crone shows that Mecca was in fact way off the incense route from Yemen to Syria, which bypassed where Mecca is today by over 100 miles. Further, there is no mention whatever of Mecca in contemporary non-Moslem sources:


          For an increasing number of Islamic historians, the tradition of Mohammed being the source and explanation of the Arab Conquest, wherein Arab tribesmen on horseback emerged out of the Arabian deserts to conquer Syria, Mesopotamia, Persia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya, and Spain in less than 80 years (636-712), stands history on its head. They demonstrate that the story of Mohammed uniting various Arab tribes like Genghiz Khan did for the Mongols, and providing them with the religious fervor to conquer in the name of Islam, is "sacred history," rather than real history. Historian Gordon Newby explains:

          "The myth of an original orthodoxy from which later challengers fall away as heretics is almost always the retrospective assertion of a politically dominant group whose aim is to establish their supremacy by appeal to divine sanction."

          This applies to the Arab Conquest, says al-Rawandi, because for some two hundred years the Arab conquerors were a minority amongst a non-Moslem majority. For al-Rawandi, Islam is an invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Arab Imperialism. The Conquest is the reason and explanation for Islam, not the other way around.

          While there may well have been a historical individual named Ubu'l Kassim who was later entitled Mohammed ("The Praised One"), who raised followers and participated in the initiation of the Arab Conquest, he likely came from northeast Arabia in what is now southern Jordan. The deity that Ubu'l Kassim chose to follow was Allah, a contraction of al-Lah, the ancient Arab God of the Moon [note: which is why the symbol of Islam to this day is the crescent moon]. Ubu'l Kassim died, however, some years before the Arab Conquest was fully underway (the traditional date is 632). Al-Rawandi summarizes what then happened:

          "Once the Arabs had acquired an empire, a coherent religion was required in order to hold that empire together and legitimize their rule. In a process that involved a massive backreading of history, and in conformity to the available Jewish and Christian models, this meant they needed a revelation and a revealer - a Prophet - whose life could serve at once as a model for moral conduct and as a framework for the appearance of the revelation.

          Hence (Ubu'l Kassim was selected to be the Prophet), the Koran, the Hadith (Sayings of the Prophet), and the Sira were contrived and conjoined over a period of a couple of centuries. Topographically, after a century or so of Judaeo-Moslem monotheism centered on Jerusalem, in order to make Islam distinctively Arab... an inner Arabian biography of Mecca, Medina, the Quraysh, the Prophet and his Hegira (flight from Mecca to Medina alleged in 622, Year One in the Islamic calendar) was created as a purely literary artifact.

          An artifact, moreover, based not on faithful memories of real events, but on the fertile imaginations of Arab storytellers elaborating from allusive references in Koranic texts, the canonical text of the Koran not being fixed for nearly two centuries." (p.104)

          Al-Rawandi concludes that the Sira, the life of Mohammed in Mecca and Medina is a myth, a "baseless fiction." This is the conclusion of a substantial number of serious academic historians working on Islamic Studies today. They include Mohammed Ibn al-Warraq, Mohammed Ibn al-Rawandi, John Wansbrough, Kenneth Cragg, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook, John Burton, Andrew Rippin, Julian Baldick, Gerald Hawting, and Suliman Bashear. Yet they and their research are virtually unknown.

          • Islam and Mohammad critic

            “any great truth can will stand any great challenge with a smile on her face”

            "Akhenaten did not like the existing logos of the sun god, so to his credit, came up with a unique new logo and symbol. Islam, on the other hand, merely copied the 2500 year old "crescent moon" logo of the Kemetic moon god and didn't bother to hire a graphic design artist. The crescent moon is found on top of every mosque and even at the Kaba on top of the Maqam Ibrahim, is virtually identical to that used in Babylonian and Kemetian moon god "Sîn" worship at Harran in 2100 BC."



              • It was these Arabs, under the guise of Islam, who first enslaved the African, as well as defiled the ancient teachings and monuments in Lower and Upper Egypt, as well as other parts of East Africa, to build mosques and other buildings in the name of Islam.

                Like the European, the Arabs gave us their names, language, culture, religion and god (s).

                The Arab slavers raided at nightfall, during the dinner time. Africans who resisted or tried to run were shot and killed. Most adult men were killed as the Arabs favored women and children for sale. The captives then endured a long and torturous march through the African countryside as the slavers searched and gathered more captives. Young men, women, and children were bound by hand and by neck throughout this journey, enduring beatings and rapes along the way. Those who fell sick or dead were left behind. Others remained bound to living captives.

                After surviving the torturous ride aboard the Arab slave ships, Africans were taken to the slave markets. Here Muslim men would inspect their intended purchases. Women and young girls were degradingly probed by these men in public or private stalls to test their sexual worth. Those that did not survive their time in these markets were left out to rot. It is said that that hyenas gorged themselves on human flesh.

                The Arab slave trade also dealt in the sale of castrated male slaves: Aghas or eunuchs. Used as guards and tutors, these slaves were central to familial peace, protection and order in many wealthy Muslim households. Eunuchs were created by completely amputating the scrotum and penis of 8-to-12-year-old African boys. Hundreds of thousands of young boys may have been subjected to this genital mutilation. Many bled to death during the gory procedure. The survival rate of this process ranged from 1 in 10 to 1 in 30.

                It has been estimated that in all, at least 14 to 20 MILLION African men, women and children have died throughout the arab slave trade, and numbers continue to increase daily.

                • Muhammad - Fictional Character

                  Muhammad is another fictional character created by the whites and their offspring.

                  The God of the Nile in Kamit is called Hap or Hapi. He is the masculine Spirit operating through that body of river water. Hap is the longest river in the world. The Deity Hap was recognized to have twin aspects. As Hap flows through the southern part of the country He is called "Hap Reset" meaning "Hap of the South". As Hap flows through the northern part of the country He is called "Hap Meht" meaning "Hap of the North". The word for water in Kamit is "mu".

                  "Mu Hap Meht" is a title of Hap, meaning "waters" (Mu) of the "northern Nile" (Hap Meht). This is an ancient title of Hap, used for thousands of years by the people of Kamit. This title was corrupted by the whites into Muhapmed and Muhammad.

                  It very rarely rains in Kamit, therefore the people are dependent on the flood of the river (Hap) for their survival, and a life of tranquility/peace. The coming of the inundation of the nile (flood of Hap) was occassioned by a celebration every year. This celebration continues today and is called the "Night of the Drop". It is said that from the Eye of Ra (the star Auset-Sapadet/Sirius) a Divine tear drop falls, which causes the swelling of the Nile/Hap every year.

                  This is why Hap Meht/Mu Hap Meht also has the ancient title "Sarem". "Sa" means "shrine or sanctuary of a God or Goddess". "Rem" means "tear". "Sarem" is a title of Hap meaning the river Hap is a "shrine/sanctuary of the Divine tear (rem) of Auset-Sapadet".

                  This title "sarem" was corrupted into salem, salm, isalm and islam by the whites and their offspring. (Understand that 'r' and 'l' are interchangeable linguistically. In Kamit as well as the derivative Akan language there is no 'l', just a rolling 'r'. All words with 'l' in them are translated in both languages, and pronounced, as rolling 'r') This is why it is said that Mu Hap Meht (waters of the Northern nile/muhammad) brings Sarem (islam) to the people.

                  When the river floods its banks, It creates a tremendous lake about 600 miles long and 10-12 miles wide in certain areas. It appears from the ground that when Ra (God) sent MuHapMeht (muhammed) into the country, MuHapMeht and Sarem (muhammad and isalem/islam) overran the country (with water).

                  As Hap was sent at the end of the year, to start the beginning of a new year and new agricultural season, he was seen as the "last messenger of God" (Ra and also Rait--Rait is the Goddess/Creatress of the World---Ra is the Creator). Mu Hap Meht was the type and figure of a saviour and comforter in Kamit for thousands of years. Again, this info was co-opted by the whites and their offspring when manufacturing their fictional character.
  • A large scale movement supposedly centered on the teachings of a charismatic individual is best explained by the existence of some individual who so motivated people, even if the stories surrounding such have evolved over time and incorporated some mythology.

    Occam's Razor.

    Muhammed likely existed as did Jesus
  • Unsu...
    Islam is a sick twisted charade of a philosophy,
    It guarantees that the worst of what humanity has to offer will exploit it to justify their sick psychotic violent inclinations.
    Mooslims are fukin dupes.
    • That sort of assessment just illustrates an unwillingness to educate oneself beyond one's prejudices. Some strands of Sufism for instance are a beautiful form non-dualism and are as good an expression of the "perennial philosophy" as any.
      • jesus and mohammed probably did exist,,,and so does the history of

        bloodshed and miseries caused in their name,,,

        the mystical side of a religion is nice and fine,,,tho tell that to some one
        who had to deal with fanatics of that religion,,,or any religion,,,sure there are aspects
        of a religion that is "nice" ,,,but so what when it is over shadowed by historical instances
        of a religions psychochitic idiots
      • Unsu...
        No Ryan. My position contemplates the larger Ummah and not some isolated little philosophy that maybe has a few thousand adherents.

        There is no value to the larger universe in some adorable little variant here or there when the majority is behaving in an unspeakably bad manner.

        Take that ridiculous politically correct lie about the extremists being just some small minority.
        I adore that one it makes the extremist contingent out to be a trivial thing.
        There is no small minority of extremist Moslems.
        If it were a small minority there'd be nothing to worry about.
        A small scale flare up here, an abortive attempt at a bombing there, and that'd be it.
        It would be a matter for the Keystone cops.

        These animals are capable of waging wars that drain thousands of American lives away every year.
        That's no small minority.

        It is no small minority that the world wide Ummah is hiding supporting and protecting the extremists either.
        If this were a small minority their parents would spank them and that'd be it.
        The Ummah is active in protecting the extremists.
        It really is “us against them” from where they stand.
        If mister Infidel Cop wants to take little Achmed away, they hide him, they feed him, they provide him transport. "He is one of us" they say to themselves.

        That's no small minority.

        • >My position contemplates the larger Ummah and not some isolated little philosophy.

          My point exactly. You ignore the bits that don't fit with you preconceptions, painting over a billion people with a single brush.

          >There is no small minority of extremist Moslems.

          Muslims around the globe are as likely to reject violence against civilians as are Americans. If Muslims are extremists for this, so are Americans.
          • Unsu...
            ***************My point exactly. You ignore the bits that don't fit with you preconceptions, painting over a billion people with a single brush.***********

            Well when you "bits" can be compiled to weigh in as much as the rest of it you'll have something.
            Otherwise it's just an interesting variation on the theme.
            Not worth noticing when there's a bull elephant rampaging about .

            *****Muslims around the globe are as likely to reject violence against civilians as are Americans. If Muslims are extremists for this, so are Americans. ***********

            Are they? Maybe as individuals the majority might be but even as individuals they seem utterly disinterested in managing the extremism. In fact they seem to encourage and foster it.

            I think they reject violence when they suffer it. When you do, I don't know that they much care but hey, as soon as they start chasing the monsters down with splintery boards and pitchforks I'll be more than happy to recant.

            • >Well when you "bits" can be compiled to weigh in as much as the rest of it you'll have something.

              Yet another example of you creating a situation in which you can keep the blinders comfortably on. If its not at least 50% it doesn't mean anything. What a load.

              >Otherwise it's just an interesting variation on the theme.

              It certainly is that. But you scarcely seem to acknowledge either that variation exists or that it is interesting.

              >Not worth noticing when there's a bull elephant rampaging about .

              There is no "bull elephant". I guess some people must scare pretty easily. However, being a frightened alarmist doesn't actually make you any safer.

              >Maybe as individuals the majority might

              Yup. Frankly there is no other way a person can be against something.

              > they seem utterly disinterested in managing the extremism. In fact they seem to encourage and foster it

              If you mean violence against civilians, then that is simply untrue. If you are talking about violence against military personal (especially foreign occupiers) and their "command and control", well that is not extremism, that is just warfare. Americans seem to gleefully celebrate warfare as much as any group (and more than most).
              • Unsu...
                ***********It certainly is that. But you scarcely seem to acknowledge either that variation exists or that it is interesting. *************

                Why should I?

                I walk in a field. Maybe one out of a million plants is of a certain species. It's rare. it'spoisonous.
                Should I burn the whole field because of a couple of corn cockes?
                Should I even pay attention to the cockles?

                That's you problem.
                You think that because you can find one person in a billion who can practice Islam in a non destructive manner that it some how saves the whole from condemnation.
                It doesn't

                And Ryan, there is a bull elephant rampaging. It's called Islam.
                Islam isaw war with the entire rest of the world. It is incapable of coexisting.
                Look around you. examine the goals of the Islamic communities you find,. They all want to force you to change your culture to make room for their failed sick twisted tribalist Islamist crap.

                On the flip side go find some Albanian mooslims. Tney don't give a rats ass what you do, they are fine, they have not got the mental disease of tribalism They don't click up in little ghettos of only Albanian mooslims. They are unafraid to live among you. They are un-threatened by your culture. They embrace it and adopt the better aspects of it. The Fukin Tribalist mooslims on the other hand are terrified that your filth will pollute them. They teach their children that you are a worthless animal. A beast of the field and see your loved ones as mere sex toys for their pleasure.

                Your problem is that you think you are better than everybody else.

                • "And Ryan, there is a bull elephant rampaging. It's called Islam.
                  Islam isaw war with the entire rest of the world. It is incapable of coexisting.
                  Look around you. examine the goals of the Islamic communities you find,. "

                  I have done so and simply don't see what you claim I should. Therefore I am forced to conclude that you are just the sort of guy who see danger where none exists. I believe you are simply afraid of you own shadow (a bit of Jungian projection humor, for which I apologize)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Where none exists.

                    That's typical laughable nonsense from the politically correct left.
                    • Yeah I get it, you're scared of the big bad Islamic boogymen. Cause they're all out to get you.

                      Personally I guess I just don't scare that easily. I'm not calling you a coward by any means, but we definitely seem to have different tolerances regarding what triggers fear in us. I'm not saying you don't have every right to feel and express that fear. I just have an equal right to find it amusing.
                    • PS. I spent many years with a gun-toting gal who was active in the "posse comitatus" . I doubt she'd put up with anyone she regarded as a leftist. I'd characterize my political views as essentially libertarian.

                      Don't make sweeping assumptions based on a persons views on a single issue. For instance, I don't assume you're a creationist based on the fact that have an obvious disdain for Muslims and gays.
      • Unsu...
        Islam as a religion has absolutely ZERO inhibitions preventing people from taking it to psychotic violent extremes.
        In fact Islam is structured such that it encourages the teaching of the worst of things exactly because the religion is a purely populist one.
        There are no formal authoritative teachings, no theology, no supervision of what the mullahs teach. There is nothing about Islam that in any way restricts the crazy people from spreading their madness.
        It encourages madness.

        Islam is whatever the hell any mooslim says it is. So if you want to declare yourself a Mooslim mullah and teach some wild and psychotic version if Islam there is nothing anywhere in all the Ummah to serve as a check against you. In fact the standing you have in the world wide Ummah gets better as you recruit more madmen.

        A Mullah's standing in the Ummah is a direct outgrowth of how many people follow him and how influential his Fatwas are.
        That is a purely populist system. The easiest way to abuse that is to attract the most venal violent psychotics you can to be your followers.
        Armed with a hoard of followers who will enforce your fatwas you are guaranteed that the weaker Mooslims will be cowed even to the point of following you. Eventually you get critical mass and people follow you just because there are so many others following you.
        And of course your Fatwas are obeyed. In the secret world of the Ummah there are no secrets. Mooslims are not terribly good at keeping secrets from each other.

        The only way to prevent this madness is to centralize Mooslim religious authority.
        And we all know what happened the last time those fukers got themselves a Caliphate.
        It brought on 400 years of holy war against all things Christendom. The Mooslims waged war in Syria and other Oriental countries converting every one at sword point. They ran wild through the Balkans imposing Islam on pain of death. They enslaves women and raped children and killed all the men every where they went. Then they went to Europe and in Spain met their match.

        The Crusades were Christendom's response to 400 years of Mooslim Jihad against all things Christian.

        So there you have it:
        Islam is the wild wild uncontrollable mental disease that is burning in a fever across the world wide Ummah.
        The only way to regulate it is to cause a Caliphate to rise and the only thing a Cali[h has ever done was to set about trying to conquer the world.
        • today in the LA Times was an article of muslims in the armed forces,,,,some said they got
          more "looks" and criticism from other muslims as being not loyal to the religion for serving in
          irag or afghanistan,,,some said it was because the koran states something about muslims killing muslims,,,

          so that makes it okay to kill infidels,,,and who is counting the suicide bombers and the muslims they wipe out,,,
          till a religion strands up for what is 'right' and says so to even their own then why even bother with respecting them,,,
          • >"looks" and criticism from other muslims as being not loyal to the religion for serving in
            >irag or afghanistan,,,some said it was because the koran states something
            >about muslims killing muslims,,,

            Really nothing surprising there. There more like oneself the target of violence is the less likely there will be popular support. I can tell you right now that wars against white Christians typically are harder to win support for in America than wars against non-whites especially if they are also non-Christians.

            Besides, the fact that there is little support for the war in Iraq among the Muslim American community may be less indicative of extremism than it is simply a manifestation of a slightly higher than average IQ. ;-)

            >till a religion strands up for what is 'right' and says so to even
            >their own then why even bother with respecting them,,,

            If you think the wars and military occupation in Iraq and (to a lesser extent) Afghanistan are highly immoral, then the "looks" and "criticism" you mentioned would in in fact *be* a "religion stranding up for what is 'right' and saying so to even their own"
            • mc
              offline 61
              I wonder how much the concept of "predestination" has contributed to creating monsters in both Christianity and Islam over the centuries.

              I come from a Christian background and studied Christian theology at what I considered to be a seminary that represents a sort of cross section of American Christianity (Fuller Seminary). In seminary, we had a representative mix of Evangelicals and Mainline Protestants along with a few strays like Seventh-day Adventists (my more specific background).

              On the one hand, I found I had to ultimately reject the Calvinist bent that everything is pre-ordained because it made the task of tackling the issue of theodicy more ridiculous than it already is - at least for me. Not that issue of theodicy has been resolved in my mind in any way. In fact, I consider theodicy to be the black eye of Christian theology in the end. Enough to warrant doubt about the Christian model of [G]od, imho. Enough so that a segment within mainline Christian theology is asserting that orthodox notions of omniscience need to be revisited with the possibility that [G]od might be able discern all possibilities at any given point/moment in space/time but cannot predict what any of us will actually choose to do in the end.

              But back towards my point here...Nevertheless, I do remember that while not everyone subscribed to a strict concept of predestination, there was still this broad openness towards the ideas that "things happen for a reason" and "[G]od is in full control of everything" and a healthy trust that "faith will produce good works" - all things which sound nice, perhaps, but can easily lead to a very skewed self-awareness about one's relationship to the world, to history, to others...And potentially produce a powerful justification for actions that result in violence.

              There were fellow seminarians who truly believed that going to war was the only choice Americans had because it was a ultimately a holy war and that [G]od had ordained America to be the victors against the "evils of Islam". I had a friend who called me and asked me how I felt about "the anti-christ having been elected" after CNN called the election and announced Obama. I had another friend whose Evangelical roommate simply stated that we were in for "seven years of tribulation" as punishment for American having chosen a leader that would try to make peace with the Palestinians. And none of these friends were Calvnist/Presbyterian. And for those seminarians and Christians around me who were against the war - a good chunk of them still agreed on the conclusion that Islam is the central problem.

              I agree - that America is not a "Christian" nation but as significant (possibly majority) amount of people are, in varying degrees, either practicing or still open to Christian views on the world. In other words, while only part of Christendom actually takes stock in the idea of strict "predestination", similar ideas and lenses on the world are still highly present through dominionism and concepts which are really no different that the concept of "manifest destiny". In the end they breed a sense of self-justification, entitlement and powerful sense of self-confidence in the arenas of politics and war.

              I am not asserting that everyone in America is consciously employing Christian values in their decision-making. What I am saying, however, is that we need to consider where this broader self-confidence about America being so purely in the right is situated. I think dominionism has become a sort of cultural "given" even if not attributed to a mandate by [G]od.

              Its easy to demonize the other, but lets face it...In the end America went to war with the Muslim population several times killing an obscene amount of people including the lion's share of civilians. To say we did not contribute to the precipitation of the events of 9/11 makes the tragedy even more sad as it now adds to the potential of perpetual polarization and the sort of self-justification that can perpetuate wars. And yet I find a lot of people still consider America the innocent victim of extremism.

              As predestination is a powerful concept in Islam, I imagine it potentially produces similar phenomena amongst Muslims - even if not embraced so literally - simply because Muslims are people too. Add to that this popular religious ideas on both sides that earthly existence is not to be counted or banked upon and that all things will be made right in heaven/paradise and I say we have a recipe for disaster as far as world affairs go. Who is going to give a shit about the environment, infidels and apostates (anyone who believes differently than yourself) or world peace when you have a destiny that promises eventual global domination and a swift, momentary judgment resulting in eternal death to anyone who has not accepted "truth" in the end...

              Predestination as an idea lends itself to a very dangerous world view, imho. It does not surprise me that it is an important concept in both Christianity and Islam.

              • That was a very interesting post MC. I've had similar thoughts on the subject. There is another important religious rational for indiscriminate killing which is endemic to Christianity and Islam. If you are a true-believer it provides a logic that is difficult to argue with.

                Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

                I'll post more later if i have time.
                • We have the no-lose god who answers every question "yes, no or maybe."
                  We have the appeal to the ultimate but absent authority.
                  We have the lust for unobtainable supposedly better than anything heaven and the fear of worse than anything hell.
                  And we have the persecution complex and guilt tied to every form of enjoyment.

                  The whole thing is completely insane in an way as tightly interlocking as a paranoid conspiracy theorist's nighmare.

                  What evil cannot be justified in the name of god? We've yet to find one I think.
  • Unsu...
    I think that Mohamed was a real person. There is a historical record that is strong enough to support the conclusion that the man was real.
    However he was a pedophile homosexual whose only goals were self promotion, power, wealth and feeding his sick twisted sexual perversions.

    Mohamed was all about little boys and the occasional little girl. Everything else was subordinate to his pedophile-homosexuality. The armies the money the weak minded followers all fed his perversions.

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